Leica CL: Is this the end of the road for Leica’s journey with APS-C?

The Leica CL and Leica’s commitment to APS-C are headed for the history book. If you can read the tea leaves, the signs are manifest. For months the rumours have been trickling out. First, the CL and the kits were “out of stock”. Then there was the hope of a CL2, then a gradual realisation that it wasn’t coming. And without a CL2, there’ll be no CL.

The Leica CL deserved to succeed. When it was announced in 2017 it was the answer to the dreams of those customers who believe that a built-in viewfinder is essential.
The Leica CL deserved to succeed. When it was announced in 2017 it was the answer to the dreams of those customers who believe that a built-in viewfinder is essential.

Supplies have dwindled and ceased in some areas but no official announcement has been made. The exit from APS-C is probably no great secret, but the company is keeping quiet as it always does in these circumstances.

CL needs stimulation

In May last year, Leica’s Stefan Daniel told LHSA members that APS-C “is a part of Leica’s product range and will continue”. He did admit, however, that the CL “needs some stimulation”. A year later and CL doesn’t just need stimulation, it needs fibrillation.

The CL, seen here with the 18mm f/2.8 Elmarit pancake lens, was let down by lack of development and by the high cost of system lenses. Attractive as it was, it couldn't justify it's cost enough to bring in new customers
The CL, seen here with the 18mm f/2.8 Elmarit pancake lens, was let down by lack of development and by the high cost of system lenses. Attractive as it was, it couldn’t justify its cost enough to bring in new customers

All the signs are that the factory has decided to concentrate in future on the full-frame sensor and on the M, SL and Q ranges, with the exception of the compact cameras which are essentially re-badged Panasonics with a bit of Leica hokus pokus thrown in at full moon.

The APS-C market is highly competitive[footnote] Nikon, Canon, Sony and Ricoh remain in the game, but the natural home for disappointed CL fans is Fuji, a company that has shown maximum commitment to APS-C[/footnote] and, of course, it isn’t just a matter of delivering a new camera or an updated version of the CL. It is the whole range that needs updating. Including the lenses.

There have been no significant developments in the Leica lens portfolio since the T was introduced in 2015. The arrival of Sigma as part of the L-Mount Alliance had the potential to put new life into the CL, but it appears not to have had much effect, despite the presence of some attractive lenses.

It is hard to see how Leica could now catch up with the competition. Any resurrection of Leica’s APS-C offerings at this stage would require a substantial financial commitment which, I feel sure, Leica is not willing to commit.

Dalliance

Leica’s dalliance with APS-C has lasted over 12 years, from September 2009 when the much-loved X1 was announced, alongside the M9. Those were the days.

It’s certainly been a chequered history. The company’s APS-C offerings have staggered from pillar to post, with a succession of disparate models and objectives. There has been no clear line of progression — no logical plan and goal as we have seen with Fuji in particular.

Instead, we have had four distinct ages of APS-C: First, the compact X1/2, then the bulkier and ill-fated X and X Vario, followed by the upstart T before giving in to the inevitable with the CL, equipped for the first time with a viewfinder. It has been a policy of, “if at first it doesn’t succeed, throw it out and try again”.

The X1/2 compact, seen here in its final X-E form, is still a desirable camera becauseof its small size, full manual controls and superb results. If it had been developed, it would still sell well today
The X1/2 compact, seen here in its final X-E form, is still a desirable camera because of its small size, full manual controls and superb results. If it had been developed, it would still sell well today

Take the X1 and X2, both cameras which still have a faithful following in their dotage. Had they been developed logically over the past decade we could easily have ended up with a small camera similar in function to the Q, offering the more compact advantages of APS-C. Leica customers would have stuck with it because there is great interest in such a fixed-lens camera (just look at the Fuji X100 and Ricoh GR).

How to do APS-C. Fuji has made APS-C its own and the X100 range (here the X100F) shows what Leica could have done with the X1. Instead of continuously changing horses, Fuji has quietly developed the X100 over more than a decade and it remains the most popular fixed-lens APS-C compact. What were Leica's product managers thinking of? They could have had a slice of this action.
How to do APS-C. Fuji has made APS-C its own and the X100 range (here the X100F) shows what Leica could have done with the X1. Instead of continuously changing horses, Fuji has quietly developed the X100 over more than a decade and it remains the most popular fixed-lens APS-C compact. It ticks all the boxes. What were Leica’s product managers thinking of? They could have had a slice of this action.

The subsequent X and X Vario models offered some sort of progression, but both were again let down by the absence of a built-in viewfinder. That is something that is a precondition for Q-style success.

A system, a system, a kingdom for…

Then the planners decided they might have more success with an interchangeable lens system and, conveniently, a new mount had been designed and was available for use. Time to bring in a new design team and produced something to knock the socks off the photographic world. That something was a revolutionary aluminium block of a camera, polished to perfection and with a novel touch-screen interface: the Leica T.

Nothing if not unusual, the T was the camera that was destined to take the Leica message to the well-heeled casual consumer. It had so many great features but, crucially, no built-in viewfinder. And the lenses, good as they are, were just too expensive
Nothing if not unusual, the T was the camera that was destined to take the Leica message to the well-heeled casual consumer. It had so many great features but, crucially, no built-in viewfinder. And the lenses, good as they are, were just too expensive

The story of Leica’s APS-C system is a saga in itself. The T created quite the sensation when it was announced in April 2014. It used the large-diameter T-mount (now L-mount) that had been developed from 2012 onwards as the basis of the SL.

This was always intended as a full-frame mount and it is pure happenstance that the T got it first. The new mount had the seeds of success. After all, Sony’s E-mount had been designed for APS-C but ported to full-frame after some compromises. The beefy L-mount was built for the future and raring to go.

Did I mention viewfinder?

Revolutionary as the T appeared to be, it was let down primarily by the lack of a built-in viewfinder (yet again, but Leica didn’t listen). The user interface was quirky but could have been a huge advantage in the right camera — I certainly found it a refreshing change and easy to use.

Nonetheless, Leica owners do tend to prefer a more traditional approach and were suspicious of all the smartphone allusions and references to a (now proved mythical) new generation of boutique Berties who had wads of cash but couldn’t be putting up with a traditional camera interface. What they wanted was a £4,000 iPhone with a Leica lens and they’d lap it up. They would wander past the Leica boutique, spy it in the window and buy it on impulse. But, of course, they didn’t.

Leica’s boffins did try adding a viewfinder pod to the top of the T but decided not to proceed. Had they done so, the camera would certainly have enjoyed more success and might even have been saved from the knacker’s yard.

The answer

Then came the fourth distinct age of Leica’s APS-C saga. The CL was the answer to everyone’s dreams, not least because it had an in-built viewfinder. The CL is a great little camera and has enjoyed a very strong following among Leica enthusiasts.

If ever there was a good case for development, the CL provided it. Fans were desperate for a CL2 but they will now be disappointed
If ever there was a good case for development, the CL provided it. Fans were desperate for a CL2 but they will now be disappointed

Many, I know, will not hear a bad word about the CL. But it struggled to compete with the Japanese manufacturers, with Fuji in particular. It was loved by Leica fans but ignored by the rest of the world. The camera itself was no bargain, but pricey lenses made the system prohibitively expensive when compared with, for instance, Fujifilm’s range.

The lenses are solid and capable of excellent results. They are light because they are slow (with the exception of the 35 mm f/1.4 which was fast and consequently heavy). And the two longer zooms lacked stabilisation, again a deliberate ploy in the interests of minimising size and weight.

Yet, after the flurry of the announcement, it’s as though Leica put the CL on the back burner (and the TL2 moved to the back of the hob next to the tiles). Since then, nothing has happened to convince anyone that this is other than a moribund system.

In the past six months the CL has not been mentioned in Leica presentations although, when pressed, officials have continued to emphasise that the camera is still current. If we were to be cynical, we might conclude that nothing will be said until the last CL has been sold.

Full frame favour

It is clear Leica is now putting all its efforts into more lucrative areas — the innovative SL, the surprisingly successful (even to Leica) Q and the company’s mainstay, the M. As with the ravens at the Tower of London, if the M flew the coop Leica would surely die.

The Q, then the Q2 and, here, the Q2 Monochrom, have been the hit of the 'Teens for Leica. It's success surprised even the factory and, probably, helped convince the marketing department that full-frame is the only way forward for a niche manufacturer with high overheads
The Q, then the Q2 and, here, the Q2 Monochrom, have been the hit of the ‘Teens for Leica. Its success surprised even the factory and, probably, helped convince the marketing department that full-frame is the only way forward for a niche manufacturer with high overheads

Perhaps I’m doing Leica a disservice. Perhaps Stefan’s encouraging comments of May 2020 presage a renaissance for APS-C. Maybe the CL2 is indeed just around the corner, as many Leicaphiles hope. Perhaps a new design team has been beavering away behind hermetically sealed doors, with not a whisper of a rumour escaping. Perhaps.

Sadly, this is wishful thinking, if not pure fantasy. I am now convinced that this is the final curtain for Leica and APS-C. But it isn’t the end for the CL. Here at Macfilos, we have a knack of keeping older Leicas in the spotlight. Whether it be the X1, M9, X Vario or the CL, we will be here to talk about the attraction of these discontinued models. In common with the X1, the CL will have a popular afterlife.

Bye-bye CL and your crop-frame sensor. It’s been very nice knowing you. RIP.


Images: Leica and Fuji press offices

Read more about the Leica CL



154 COMMENTS

  1. Sorry for the error in my comment above: Evidently Fujifilm APS-C bodies DO NOT have IBIS. Nevertheless, I happily used several Fujifilm APS-C bodies for a few years and they were great. If I should need an “escape route” if my Leica CL becomes damaged, I’d happily welcome a Leica L-to-Fujifilm smart adapter if one become available. Of course, in today’s market, I’d much rather have a Leica L to Canon R adapter so I’d have an excuse to try out the new Canon R7 body that seems to check all the boxes. Or, it’s too late for Leica to issue an up-to-date CL.

  2. Canon’s release of the R7 and R10 evidently caused Sony to bring back the a6600 with image stabilization. Given that Fujifilm also has IBIS, now the Leica CL is now not only discontinued — but it’s also obsolete! Good going Leica! This makes it more imperative for Sigma, Sony, Fujifilm, or Canon to bring out a “smart converter” to permit Leica lenses to achieve full-functionality with their APS-C bodies.

  3. It’s ridiculous someone from the company hasn’t yet been interviewed about. It’s just a camera, not a saucer with aliens

  4. That paves the way for a “luxury” APS-C that commands the margins sufficient to have APS-C products (unlike the A6600 and A6400) to stick around. Maybe that CAN include some of the features that makes the A99 so appealing and the stripped down menu systems like the CL’s/

  5. I second the hope that Fujifilm will produce a “smart” Leica L-mount adapter that will permit great lenses such as the Vario-Elmar 55-135 zoom to find a new home. Come to think of it, Fujifilm could also develop a mount for the Sony APS lenses now that the A6600 has been discontinued.

    • Rumors surfaced today that Sony will announce 3 new APS-C lenses: 11mm f/1.8, 15mm f/1.4 and 10-20mm f/4.0. So, even though Sony halted production of all its APS-C bodies, it looks like Sony might not be entirely done with APS-C just yet…

    • I hate to say I told you so, but Canon yesterday announced a high-end APS-C body that has all the features a new version of the CL needed, the Canon R7 with an APS-C mount, weather-proofing, and highly effective in-camera stabilization. All they lack is lenses since the only announced ones are two consumer-class zooms. Further, the R7 costs about $1500 for the camera body itself.
      Could a third-party such as Sigma easily develop a “smart” L (Leica) mount to RS (Canon) adapter that would permit Sigma and Leica L lenses to work on the RS Canon cameras? This would assure the success of the Canon R7 since it would be a natural upgrade path for Leica and Sigma lens users. Is the needed engineering costs, or would it violate any Leica patents? If not, this would be a very smart move. Ditto for another version that would permit Sony APS-C lenses to be used on the R7.

      • The specs of the R7 (and R10) had been out there for a few weeks already, and except for its rather underwhelming design and rather bulky appearance the price is right and the features are right, certainly if you are into sports or wildlife this is a no brainer, I am pretty sure that we will see a similar high-end APS-C camera from Sony as well in the nearby future, Leica seems to be the only company that believes APS-C is no longer viable, it is what it is…

  6. I second the hope that Fujifile will produce a “smart” Leica L-mount adapter that will permit great lenses such as the Elmaret 55-135mm to be used on Fujifilm cameras and — dare we hope — permit anti-shake to function on the Leica lenses as well. Or, if the don’t, Sony could probably finance the Leica mount out of petty cash; and — dare we hope — produce an upgrade path from the A6600 that would include many of the features from the A99. That would provide Both CL and A6600 users with a true luxury product and permit the Leica lenses to be used with A6500/A6600 cameras as well.

  7. The internal talking points document makes it pretty clear what has happened. But you can also add that Leica should have had this in place 6 months ago and follow-up communication aimed at customers to be shared out before the rumors began circulating. And finally the wording of this talking points note is badly written. Did the legal department ever get to look at it before it went out? I’m not a lawyer but this has holes in it that could be exploited if someone wanted to.

  8. I know it’s just a guess. But no one can argue against the fact that the first step has started on settling L Mount out for Leica.

  9. Well, Leica Forum now has this thread: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/332525-officially-announced-discontinued/

    Unless the document in the opening post is a spoof (several well-informed posters seem to accept its authenticity, though), it´s the long, long overdue confirmation, directly from the horse´s mouth.

    Sorry, Leica; your handling of this whole issue has got me very reluctant to plan for more Leica purchases of any kind. Not to mince words: I don´t trust you any more!

    • …and now, after sticking my head out, I see that there are several new posts about this already…. (i´m red faced…). Refreshing web pages before acting is a good idea.

      Sorry about this; Mike, feel free to delete my post!

  10. Then it’s goodbye Leica. Never again new leica L mount for me.

    I will do what I can to warn new buyers against buying new L Mount. I bet the same thing will happen in a few years with FF Leica L.

    Then L Mount is sigma and Panasonic ..

    Guaranteed for 6 years. From the date of acquisition.

    For me 2017 so I can get repaired for one more year spring 2023 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. That is totally unacceptable. Why is it not for all 6 years ahead ??? 😡🤬🤬🤬.

    If Leica does not live the punishment of its customers, I do not understand.

    They do not even apologize for their handling of the case 😡😡

    • Well, as we’ve noticed, they haven’t announced the end of the CL and it is still being touted as a new system. At least we are all forewarned.

      • Yes, we are forewarned but only because somebody out there leaked an internal document, Leica as a corporation still prefers to act as if nothing happened… The message in the document is really not doing Leica’s reputation any good… Longevity is one of the main reasons why people buy into Leica…. very very shortsighted IMO…

      • To me, Leica is Q and M – we are warned enough. Leica do not care about their L Mount (APSC) customers. Then some may argue that FF L Mount still exists. But Leica is very expensive and how long will Leica stay alive in FF. I do not think it’s any susses for Leica. It is very clear that APSC is stopping. FF will stop in a few years. Leica can survive for a while on M and Q.

  11. It has now been officially confirmed by Leica that the CL and TL2 have been discontinued. There is a thread on the LUF forum. Leica will provide support for another 6 years.

    • Correction. It is actually 6 years from the date of Purchase which in my case means that Support for the TL2 runs out in July 2023 and for the CL in November 2023… Completely unacceptable in my opinion…

      • Sounds like Leica. i bought,used and loved several of the Fuji X range and especially liked the combined direct view of the X-Pro 2 which uniquely gave me true live view without any EVF delays whatsoever, something which I regard as being vital for Sports and high action shots.
        That said I also continued using and even adding to with my various Leica systems partly out of loyalty to Leica given I have been buying using Leica cameras ever since C1953/4 during my past life as a full time Pro photographer, and when Leica also had a worthwhile UK based service set up.
        The eventual decision to sell my Fuji cameras and lenses genuinely was a hard one, and one very possibly prompted more for the wrong reasons, for instance like although I preferred the Fuji’s I also happened to enjoy being a member of such as the Leica Society, The LHSA and I am also a very keen member of The Leica Fellowship so me even admitting to loving or using a Fuji was a little bit like me committing treason.

        So to cut a long story short off went the Fuji’s in came a CL Outfit plus a Q and a SL and all by then to supplement my considerable collection of M and Screw Leica’s and lenses etc, and can you believe I actually felt good about my deciding to continue supporting this once great German company, such a shame really as like so many others with T’s TL2’s and CL’s etc we now know our faith in Leica was misplaced, and they are most certainly not supporting us.

        Sad to think of it, but I for one have spent my last Bob with them. Don

  12. I thought the Fuji system was also APSC have I got it wrong? If right then I see them as being the rightful replacement for Leica in this market sector rather than such as Canon or even Panasonic, and dare I mention I did buy a Fuji X-Pro 2 a couple of years back and much preferred it to my then Leica MP 240, indeed I still think it is the camera Leica should have made and nothing wrong with the Fuji lenses either.. Don

    • Fuji is the most Leica-like of all manufactures and is a natural home for Leica users who want the latest in APS-C technology. I agree on the lenses, also.

      • Now if some kind soul would offer an adaptor that would allow TL lenses to be used on Fuji X cameras, all would then be right with the world.

    • I think CL was never a real competitor for Fuji users. Expensive and non compatible lens system. Nothing to do with the versatility of very affordable bodies and a wide range of good lenses. Different though.
      Perhaps if they had hold a bit longer…

  13. And so it goes on…. and on…. I haven’t heard that Panasonic is dropping APS-C, and they will presumably still have access to Leica-formula APS-C lenses? Apart from the fact that I now have enough cameras (!), I can see myself looking in Panasonic’s direction in the future. How about a Panasonic CL?

  14. Good point. What format is good for what? For many apsc is a kind of second class one compared to ff; lack of depth and bla bla. But beyond that, the discussion was already done between medium format and 35 mm film. And the winner is …

  15. Yes, that’s weird. But the explanation for Canon may be that APSC is a format that is good for nature photography. Due tele and to x 1.5. I know many of my friends use it for Nikon dslr. CL is more for wide and Max 55-135 mm. but still sigma makes good teles that fit the CL…🤔.

    • If Canon indeed announces the R7 and the R10 and if Sony stays in APS-C (a big if as they halted production of all of their APS-C cameras) it would IMO be a big strategic mistake of Leica (and of the L-mount alliance in general) to abandon APS-C. Sony, Canon and Nikon would have FF and APS-C in one and the same mount, the L-mount alliance would not. Also FWIW, the 2 most sold cameras in Japan in Q1 were Canon APS-C cameras… still the old EF-M mount…

  16. Canon is expected to announce two APS-C cameras on May 24th, the R7 and the R10, so apparently not everybody is on the same page and believes APS-C is dead…?

  17. Brilliant suggestion. I’ve not dabbled much in Panasonic versions, but I recently bought the TZ70 with its diminutive sensor (1/2.3 !) and 12 MP, and its 24-720mm (equivalent) lens. It is simply brilliant with a stunningly good IQ.

  18. It’s not too late for Leica to do the right thing and probably make a profit to boot. Given their longstanding relationship with Panasonic, they need to work jointly with them to release a Lumix-Leica CL2. It would be much the same as my Leica CL, but it would have a lens stability system (“anti-shake,” full weather-proofing and maybe better video performance. Panasonic already has patents and experience building body-mounted lens stability systems that operates with any L lens; and the Olympus M-5 has demonstrated that you can build weather-proofing into a CL-sized body with virtually no cost or weight penalties. As for improved video, that’s a Lumix trade-mark!

    This would also pave the way for Lumix to release updated “Contemporary” model lenses that would be the same as the present 16mm, 30mm, and 56mm f1.4 light-weight beauties with full weather-proofing added to them. Based on my experience with the 30mm f1.4 lens, these are the kinds of lines that Leica should have been producing for their low-priced camera models!

    Everyone would benefit. Leica would presumably have cashflow from licensing while do not much more than consulting and certifying the CL2 as being “Leica=approved”. Also, the would be the camera company that took care of all its legacy customers that didn’t want Q’s or M’s. The new CL2 would gracefully slide into Lumix’s model lines priced below the expensive and heavy L-mount cameras and above the micro-four-thirds point and shoot models.

    At $1,999 for the camera-body alone, or $2999 with the f1.4 16mm, 30mm, and 56mm new weather-proofed lenses, these products would fly off the shelves and be equally attractive for still photos and videography.

    • I think this would have been a real possibility, Steve, if only Panasonic had an APS-C camera. I’ve often felt that Leica could have made something of a branded version of, one of the excellent Lumix MFT cameras. All the “Leica” MFT lenses are in place. But I can’t see Panasonic manufacturing an APS-C camera specially for Leica. Leica seems to have done pretty well out of the “Panaleica” Lux cameras and they have a strong following, especially the D-Lux. Perhaps a more likely cooperation would be with Sigma, but I really do think Wetzlar have said goodbye to APS-C and will not return. Never say never, however, because they’ve performed U-turns on several occasions in the past twelve years.

  19. I have to say I see the same thing happening.

    I think 24mm and 21mm are coming. Probably an SL3 too. But there have been so many delays on their SL primes that it is hard to see that they are betting/connected on L mount.

    I think Jono knows more than we do about Leica’s strategy and new products. 🙂

    But seen in the light of HOW they have killed apsc – where Leica has lied that the system was a continuing part of the Leica strategy. That was not the case.

    They could have just stopped saying that.

    THEREFORE, I may have a hard time believing in the L mount, as a future Leica product.

    Panasonic and Sigma can get something out of this.

    At the same time, it’s a huge problem when they raise M series prices so drastically.

    There is no way for a new young photographer (or us old ones) to start with Leica. Not if we want to make money on the pictures.

    Now there is only Q left (cheap?)

    I do not think we as consumers are unreasonable.

    Leica has always been expensive but now it has just become too much for the average consumer.

    That they then stop a series without informing loyal consumers.

    If Leica just want too be a new Louis Vuitton and not for real photographers use, then Leica just have to say it ??

    So we can move on to other brands that honestly tell what they do.

    My message is short that now I want to see something happen otherwise I no longer believe in Leica’s L Mount.

  20. My thoughts on some of the comments made above… It is good to read that Leica is entirely committed to the L-mount but a few things 1) APS-C was for me personally an essential part of that same L-mount. I was in the market for a full frame 24mm that could do double duty as a 35mm on the CL. Not so much anymore right now. 2) Although Leica supposedly is committed to the full frame part of the L-mount I personally am not seeing that yet. I mainly see M and Q product releases and never-ending delays on the L-mount side. 3) To me it is clear that full frame L-mount will not be successful if Leica keeps ignoring size and weight. For me personally Leica has never been about absolute image quality but always about high image quality in a small package. The Leica CL (together with the M and the Q) embodies that much much better than the Leica SL. It is much more of a unique camera than the Leica SL. About the Leica M, the Leica M11 represents a 38% price increase over the M10 ($6,495 to $8,995). Although obviously a good camera it is becoming more of a boutique and lifestyle camera. If the M12 is another 38% price increase it will cost $12,400. Ouch… I personally simply cannot justify prices like that to myself anymore. It is insane. I hope Leica achieves better product management, better vision and direction, and the ability to communicate with its customers but in the meanwhile my last purchases have been a Sony A7c and a Ricoh GR and unless I observe true changes within Leica I don’t see that changing anytime soon… I wish I could be more optimistic about Leica…

  21. If Leica cannot compete with Fuji in the APS-C space hoe do you expect people to believe that Leica will be able to compete with Canon. Sony and Nikon in the full frame space? And it’s not only the mere fact that Leica APS-C has been discontinued, what a lot of people have observed in the process is a complete lack of product management, marketing, vision , direction and communication. A lot of confidence has been lost here… And then there is this… When Stefan Daniel said in 2020 that APC-C was a continuing part of the Leica product range after 3 years of not investing in the product line… are we supposed to believe that he did not know yet that the CL (and the TL2) were going to be discontinued? I have my doubts… Maike Harberts Photokina 2018, the future of APS-C is bright, it is not TL2 or CL, it is TL2 and CL… 1 or 2 months later the TL2 gets its last firmware upgrade and the development team is disbanded… Again, am I supposed to believe that she as the project manager did not know that yet when she made those statements? Apologies but a very tough one…

    • True, instead of long expertise, the company shows novelty launching a line of products as if being confetti

    • That is precisely my concern. I do not think Leica is quite as connected to L Mount as we think.

      They are good at making something different than a Canon, Nikon and Sony.

      It is The integration with M Mount.

      But Leica SL – as today – will have a very hard time surviving.

      In all other industries, one would write off a brand if there were as many delays as Leica has had on their SL primes.

      I think there will probably be an SL3 but can doubt (if not more sales in SL) that there will not be more Sl lenses and maybe not even a camera.

      If you buy a Leica SL, I think you have to accept that Panasonic and Sigma are the future there.

      And as a consumer, I think it’s important to know the risk.

      That comes with the way apsc is stopped – without any information from Leica – even with small lies to get the last CL sold.

      • I won’t buy a Leica SL. The big business of Leica are M lenses: they manufacture their expensive ones while moving a big market (look at Pixii for instance); ok they are good ,but tat’s all, times change. So much that they make everything for them, even the Leica CL was made with the idea of a small M camera (they made an expensive adapter for that)

      • And a little more context:

        “NIKON PROMISES AT LEAST 22 MORE Z-MOUNT LENSES BY 2025”

        “The iPhone 14 Pro to Have a Much Larger 48MP Main Camera”

        Between those two headlines what has Leica got to offer?

  22. Kim I so agree, I am able to afford my Leica’a. Indeed as a former long term Pro I used to buy them two at a time. I still have quite a large collection from screw through various M models and including my superb little digital X-Vario, a T which again I still like a lot, a film and also a digital CL outfit, plus the wonderful Q and also a digital SL
    I loved Leica products and the company as a company back in the days when like me they were rightfully proud of the products heritage and fondly still acknowledged the of course also serviced their multitude of older models.

    The problem as I see it now however is the modern Leica company are not proud or prepared to stand by whatever camera models they have even so recently manufactured and for a brief period of time lauded so highly. No instead now they would sooner simply move on, delete and even deny.

    That modern Leica company policy hurts, not it does not just hurt long term Leica lovers like myself, but in the longer term will I believe also seriously hurt this now short sighted camera and lens manufacturing company itself. Time of course will tell about that, and believe me I wish them no harm and would love to be proved wrong.

    So for now at least I will be keeping my own Leica,s probably including my CL but the bigger question for me now given my existing views on the company is am I likely to buy any new Leica’s again? And my answer to that very sadly and a quite definite NO. Don

    • Hi Don, similar thoughts here, I have 8 Leica bodies, I might get rid of one or two, but the other ones I will probably continue to use till they fall apart… That being said, will I add any new bodies? Very very unlikely at this point in time… It seems like Leica has reduced itself to M and Q only, I had the original Q but sold it, I am not in the market for another one, the M appears to be the only Leica system with longevity but price levels have become so unrealistic in my opinion, also there I plan on using my M10-P till if falls apart…

      • However it was, Leica owners got used to adore their cameras and forgive flaws. Imagine M fades away and all M digitals become scrap (like other brands use to)

        • That was the whole reason for APS-C, Medium Format and the L-mount, Leica was too dependent on the M, people bought into that philosophy only to be disappointed by Leica, APS-C is dead, medium format on life support and I have serious doubts about full frame L-mount. the last lens announcement dates from 2018 and only 1 of the 3 lenses has been delivered… so yes, when I read that Leica have decided to commit big time to the L-mount I really have no idea what we are talking about…

          • CL meant in my view a bit of fresh air, that’s why I got it. Now it seems unbreathable, perhaps more then ever. At the end long term users brought them right here: rangefinder plus M plus Visoflex plus… what

  23. Lots of good comments here, but it seems that only Fuji are still interested in APS-C, and they’ve really cornered the market. Competing with them would really have represented a huge investment for Leica, in a market which has an uncertain future (phones get better and better).

    I think that Leica have decided to commit big time to the L mount and cameras, and of course to the M and Q cameras, and that really is a lot for a small German company to manage.

    I certainly regret that there isn’t more information on the website respecting the X, T and CL cameras, but I understand that making new firmware updates for obsolete cameras is hard to qualify financially.

    Lots of remarks here saying that they have ‘got it wrong’ – but Leica seem to be in good health, with a good product range, and that really is a fantastic achievement for a European camera company in this day and age. Like lots of people I’m very sad that the CL2 seems to have disappeared . . . . but I wonder how they would have made it into a big seller?

    I realise that I will look like an ‘apologist’ but I do understand their constraints.
    All the best

    • Difficult to understand whether they wanted or not in 2017 when they launched the CL to be a real competitor of Fuji. Or that was just a blind bid. L becomes now a cross-eyed system

    • I refer you back to their EBIT data which shows they are investing about 1/3rd of what companies typically invest in development of new products and services. You either have to have very long development cycles – so you run the risk of obsolescence before the product is launched – or what you can do in the short term is limited to things like firmware updates.

    • Fuji and others seem able and more to the point in my view WISE enough to afford look after customers still using older equipment, and may I ask what does it cost to leave previously existing firmware updates being still available as they were before on Leica’s own web site?: Don

    • I think you’re absolutely right.

      You might think my criticism of Leica is because I do not like them. That is definitely not the case!!

      I ALWAYS want my Leica M (Also thinking of Q2 which is more what I as a CL / TL user love smal)

      But Leica needs to understand that not all of their buyers are dentists and rich people !

      For mine, my purchase of APSC (I have M) was TL2 my introduction to L Mount.

      But I have a VERY hard time trusting that Leica does not stop the development on L Mount lenses and only makes SL camera for a short time yet.

      For example, Leica could make a “money back” if you buy SL2 or Q2 and exchange it !! It is important Q is with because it is more in the CL “style” Many have bought CL because of size.

      So you get a proper price for your TL / CL system if you change it.

      If they have not sold so many APSCs (and some choose to keep their CL) it may not be that expensive for them.

    • Really good to have your level-headed comment on the “APS-C Crisis”, Jonathan. I must admit to having been on the disgruntled side of the fence in this, having no hope of ever moving “up” to M, Q, or L and having really appreciated the image quality coming out of everything lesser that I’ve owned since the D-Lux 4 was my first digital camera back in 2010. If I hadn’t bought that, I would probably have gone down the M4/3 route. But now I have what I like, enjoy and almost certainly sha’n’t outlive, so I’ll just settle back and be gruntled with what I have!

    • Hi Jono – I wish I had read further down before writing my above comment – but the area where Leica missed out, was not making a fixed lens CL variant to replace the X. This would have hit at Fuji before it won that corner of the market.

      The difficulty people like me have, is that when (god forbid) my X 113 gives up the ghost – my only really option is a Fuji. So no new sale to Leica, unless our cost of living crisis settles down and I can punch into a Q. Thats a huge price difference.

      Which may lead to a steady drip away from Leica.

  24. I would at least have partly forgiven them if only they had continued offering such as the occasional useful firmware updates, and not just for the CL but also the X Range, T, TL and TL2 whereas they have instead virtually removed these entire series of cameras from history, so not a mention anymore of most (or any sort of help even for finding and downloading past updates) on such as Leica’s own official web site. That for me says rather a lot about Leica’s current attitude of let’s take the customers money and then run. Don

  25. The issue is not whether the products are good (they are), it’s the way Leica has mishandled what could have been a successful line in the CL and TL lenses. And how they have handled the demise of the line by timidly saying nothing. There would have been many advantages to Leica in getting out ahead of this situation, but they chose to do nothing. That’s simply poor management.

    • I understand the issue.

      I was commenting specifically on Kim Hansen’s “I will not spend a penny on L Mount anymore” and perhaps I misinterpreted the intent of the comment. I understood it more about the value of the L-Mount Alliance rather than Leica’s handling of the CL and TL lenses. Mea culpa.

      • My remark – I do not want to spend a penny more on L Mount – should be understood as L Mount Leica.
        I bought it because I want to use it for Leica. There is a BIG difference between a Panasonic or Sigma and Leica. L Mount alliance is gold it is good.
        But Leica has not succeeded with it.
        I do not think it is at all inconceivable that Leica will not develop more on the L Mount and make more lenses when the last two 24 and 21 mm have arrived.

        • Panasonic and Sigma are very good cameras and Sigma make some amazing lenses. I have no reservations about that. But still, there is a big difference in Leica’s simple way. That’s why I write the way I do. Hope that explains itself.

    • If Leica had rolled a fixed lens CL – a real X replacement – then it would have quenched the thirst of X typ 113 users like myself – who can only stare at the Fuji equivalent as a future potential replacement if the X expires and cannot be repaired.

      I think Leica has flaws in its horizon scanning, and long term strategies on certain products (not all), and perhaps when it set out on the CL journey, it should have made a true X replacement. It would have sold Leica gear to the Fuji crowd, and would have drawn a new audience, and potentially would have complimented Q sales, as many would go on to upgrade to a Q – or perhaps an M, or a CL, or a SL – it would be a door opener.

      Today Leica has no lower cost door opener that draws new punters in – and the market they are hovering over will shrink, they are a premium brand, at premium prices – and many will not be able to afford their products, however good. I do corporate strategy, and to a degree product development – and I spot a gap in their capability that could prove costly, however their future fares. Lets hope they come out of this okay. Selfishly I want somewhere to fix my X until they dream up a replacement.😂

  26. Personally, I am pleased with the L-Mount Alliance. While I am sad that Leica may be dropping the APS-C line, the L-Mount Alliance lenses give me great flexibility in camera body and lens selection and allows me to double my focal lengths for the same lenses.

    I use M-Mount, Full Frame L-Mount, and APS-C TL and APS-C Sigma DC DN lenses on Leica SL2-S, Sigma fp and Sigma fp L, and two Leica CL bodies.

    I use M-Mount lenses (Leica 21, 35, 50mm), one Voigtlander M-Mount (40mm) on the SL2-S, both Sigma bodies, and the Leica CL. I do the same for the Full Frame Sigma Lenses (24, 35, 65, 90mm) and one Panasonic 20-60mm lens.

    I use the APS-C TL lenses (18, 23, 35, 60; 11-23, 55-135mm) and the Sigma DC DN lenses (56, 18-50mm) on the Leica CL bodies and the Sigma fp L.

    When I travel, selecting among the Full Frame bodies and my two Leica CL bodies with a mix of a few Full Frame and APS-C lenses, give me as small a kit as I like with great flexibility in focal lengths.

    I also appreciate using APS-C lenses on the 61mp Sigma fpL, where, even with the crop factor, I still have 40mb dng files with which to work when I don’t need 61mp files.

    My Full Frame (FF) lenses on the two Leica CL bodies give me the following APS-C equivalents.

    FF 20-60mm ==> 40-90mm on APS-C;
    FF 21mm ==> 31.5mm on APS-C;
    FF 24mm ==> 36mm on APS-C;
    FF 35mm ==> 52.5mm on APS-C;
    FF 40mm ==> 60mm on APS-C;
    FF 50mm ==> 75mm on APS-C;
    FF 65mm ==> 97.5mm on APS-C;
    FF 90mm ==> APS-C 135mm on APS-C;

    So, for me, the L-Mount Alliance gives me flexibility to match camera bodies and lenses to my specific needs. And, if it is indeed the end of Leica’s APS-C offerings, my TL lenses continue to perform, preserving my investment.

  27. I will not spend a penny on L Mount anymore. In the long run, I do not think Leica wants to compete with Nikon, Canon and Sony, etc. So only if you are a Panasonic man, will it make sense. Leica are M and Q – they do well because there is no competition at the moment. But there is about to be serious competition on M lenses marked.

      • Hi Jono,
        Thanks for your reply. I appreciate that ! because I know you’re a little closer to Leica and maybe have a better feeling than I can have.

        But 2 years or less ago, executives say Leica was completely on the APSC side.

        If I have to spend money on Leica again (L Mount) in any way then it has to be a fair offer and I really have to feel safe again.

        I have no doubt about the Leica quality – nor the L Mount – but it does not help if Leica just stops in the middle of a major investment.

        Money does not hang on the trees where I come from. I make a living from taking pictures and can not just throw 40-50,000 dkr away.

        It’s not so good to be a photographer today – unfortunately.

        If Leica had been smart (now they have decided to stop APSC) then they should have been ready with an FF L Mount that was much better price than SL2 (SL2s have too few MPs – I have tried them both) or a replacement price.

        • Congratulations, Kim. You have just posted the 100th comment on this end-of-the-CL article. The level of interest is extraordinary and demonstrates the amount of feeling there is over the demise of the APS-C line.

          • Thank you very much Mike 😊. Yes, I have a great interest in APSC / Leica L Mount. Because it’s a good system.

            My interest in APSC is that the system is a small and fantastic quality. Leica quality. There is really no alternative.

            The worst is when some do not care that the system stops. It means something.

            I’ve had Leica for 30 years. I work as a photojournalist and have had jobs like that all my life. So I really hope that what I say means something to Leica.

            I give criticism but also come up with suggestions. I know Leica is not coming with a new CL2 but my short hope is that Leica looks at the SL2 and CL and takes the best of the two.

            I thank you back and I have received many comments I can use too. In my industry, Leica will not be the only camera we have. It will be a sublement for Canon, Nikon or Sony. Put on the tip 🙂

            That’s why Leica has to do something different – like CL / M / Q. If CL stops + my Young colleagues do not think leica M – with manual focus and RF + m is too expensive.

            Remember we have to make a living from our photography.

            Hope Leica still focuses on people like us.

            Therefore, only Q is left. It is a pity.

            I would like to be in a group at Leica and tell them what we need. I think they forgot 😉

            I like Jono’s comment and it gives some hope. But hope he can say a little more :-))…

            But thanks again 😊📷

          • If you want to see my work, you can google “Kim Dahl Hansen” on Danish pages. There are 1000s of pictures in newspapers. Quite ordinary press photos. Local and regional. Portraits of people. Some pages are probably locked because it is a paid newspaper. But there should be many you can see.

          • Thank you, Kim. I will take a look. And welcome to the Macfilos community. We’re an odd lot, but sincere and open minded.

          • 80% are taken with Canon or Nikon. 10% with Leica. But I would very much like to use my Leica more in my “old” days. My Canon R3 with lens is big and heavy. So therefore if I have to use SL it will be with TL lenses and M lenses.

          • Hi there Kim (and Mike)
            I really promise you Leica have not forgotten. Whether they made the right decision with the CL or not remains to be seen, but I think the thinking was that the replacement needed IBIS and weather sealing to remain competitive . . . which would make it quite a lot bigger and more expensive . . . which seemed to remove it’s unique character.

            You do suggest taking the best of the CL and the SL2, and I think that’s a pretty good idea as well, we’ll see.

            Worth mentioning that I’ve been going to Leica and talking about this stuff for almost 15 years now, and I’m quite convinced that the Production management and strategy is better than it has ever been, both more responsive and with clearer vision.

            I think there’s hope for the future, even if it isn’t APS-C

            Best
            Jono

          • Hi Jono, I hope you’m right.

            Because there really is not much we (as photojournalists) can use leica for anymore.

            There are almost no M customers left. To be completely honest, I only know one or to more than me who uses M – maybe for 2-5% of the pictures that are sold.

            I think I’m pretty much right – Denmark is a small country and we (photojournalist) know each other.

            The few I know have a Leica Q2 and that’s it.

            The young people do not know the Leica M anymore. One of the young photographers asked me about I “ was so old that I made pictures in a darkroom… ??” 😂 yes 🤣

            When Leica sell a camera – like Q – where the photographer has not bought lenses, the customer can disappear with a flick of a finger.

            One is not bound by anything.

            Those (like myself) who have been faithful and bought M/CL/TL/ (for a lot of money) – those customers they do not even tell what their strategy is and they do not care about us!

            I understand well they can not say anything about a specific product.

            But they should be able to say what direction the company is heading.

            They need to pamper their customers with a camera at a reasonable price and tie them to the system so they buy M lenses and SL lenses.

            I think Leica will lose if they try to win a match with Canon, Nikon or Sony.

            Forget it. They are light years behind already. Said with love.

            But an FF AF system that is good for manual M and SL / TL lenses.

            The price must not be in the M class. It can cost about like SL2s but with more MP and the camera should be physically smaller.

            I hope you can use what I say and apologize if my English is not quite good.

            But thank you for wanting to tell a little.

            So I can once again feel pressure at Leica.

            Right now, I’m not feeling well with Leica.

            I hope something happens soon… otherwise I’m out.

      • Jono, you have a closer connection with Leica than most of us. I sincerely hope you’re right. I don’t question the product development at all, though I can’t help but be concerned about retrenchment which is usually not a good sign. My continuing beef has always been poor communication with customers.

  28. One of these days the penny is going to drop at Leica that if they continue to ignore and or simply desert we previously loyal customers then we in turn will drop them, and it will not just be we long term customers who desert as the word will also get round o the wider photographic world as well.

    • So many times that has been in mind of serious users in many occasions like software or sensor flaws, and at the end Leica world has never been really affected. Perhaps though CL is or was an exceptional product in which many people are digging now lots of hopes. In my case, I returned to Leica getting a CL camera and lens, and to be true think since long ago about its lack of future (which never worried me). Who knows if Leica and CL futures are sailing the same waters.

    • I have said here and elsewhere that Leica’s customer relations, marketing and communication is poor. The “Flat Footers” will say that the demise of the CL was down to the market and that there was nothing that could be done. The reality is that Leica could have done a lot more to sustain the CL but chose not to. In any other company the people in charge of making these decisions would have been fired long ago. Leica has left a communications vacuum for owners to fill. Leica no longer control the dialogue about the brand.

      When you look at the financial data you can also see the amount of money they appear to be reinvesting in product development is around 4%. Most companies look to reinvest between 10-15%. Apart from the Q3, what do they have in development to make the SL line and lenses market competitive?

  29. With that policy of their camera and business, Leica is a dishonest company. Leica is M and Q. Leica L Mount might be the next thing they stop with. Anyone can see that the speed the L Mount lenses have come with. Delay upon delay. It has nothing to do with War and lack of chip. Delays and apologies had already started before then. I myself am an avid Leica user. But definitely do not agree with that business and way of doing business. Very dishonest and so for a German company with the world’s highest prices on camera equipment.

  30. Interestingly enough Leica Store Miami no longer says Discontinued but Out of Stock now for the TL lenses. Also for the bodies it now says Out of Stock instead of No longer available. Were they too honest? Still too many bodies and lenses in the supply chain? Is Leica still not able and willing to clearly communicate to its customers and clearly say what in the meanwhile has become abundantly clear to most people?

  31. I am even more glad now that I have an X-Vario. In any case I like it with the tiltable viewfinder – much more flexible than the fixed viewfinder, fixed screen rigidity of Leica’s refusal to notice what photographers need who do other things than eye-level composition.

  32. Sad. It will be interesting to see if Leica chooses to introduce a FF interchangeable lens camera priced around the same price point as the CL. Otherwise the cheapest real Leica now starts north of $5,000…

  33. Sunday April 3rd, The End: Leica Store Miami now lists the Leica CL as “No longer available”, all 7 lenses are now listed as Discontinued, they still have stock of 3 lenses (while supplies last), the other 4 are also listed as “no longer available”.

    • Since I wrote this article I have seen absolutely nothing to persuade me that I was wrong. APS-C has closed down and the CL is no more. Just a few cameras and lenses still in the system, but from now on it will be full-frame all the way for Leica.

  34. The Leica TL2 with different Leica APS-C lenses are on sale in Austria right now.
    You get up to 50% discount therefore I believe – no Leica APS-C future anymore.
    I am still dreaming of a Leica Q-L, the size of the Leica Q with interchangeable lenses, hopefully compact L-mount lenses.
    In the meantime I am using the Sony A7c with Sony and Sigma compact lenses.
    If a Leica Q-L is popping up I will trade in my Sony A7c system.

    • Hi Maigl, I hope you are not too much in a hurry because you might see an A7c II before you see a Q-L (if ever)… and if that A7c II contains a better EVF why would you not keep it…? Also, for compact lenses you would need to fall back on Sigma and you already seem to have those Sigma lenses in E-mount… Not sure whether there would much advantage switching to a Q-L if that mythical camera every materializes…

      • Hi SlowDriver, I am not in a hurry. And you are right, just exchange the compact Sigma with compact L-mount Leica lenses makes no sense.
        Some people like the size of the M10 or M11 but not the rangefinder. So maybe a Q-L with compact L-mount lenses might be attractive to others.

        • There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people want a Q-L with compact L-mount lenses, people have been begging for such a camera since 7 years now…but Leica does not want internal competition to the M and the Q… I believe they will eventually come up with a camera smaller than the SL2(-s) but the question is how much smaller is it going to be? Is it going to be Panasonic S5 small or is it going to be M/Q small? How many compact lenses are there going to be?

  35. Opps. the paragraph “And full frame lenses on the Sigma fp (24mp) still yield dng files of around 15mb, which just a few years ago was the yield of 16mp sensors.” SHOULD READ; “And APS-C lenses on the Sigma fp (24mp) still yield dng files of around 15mb, which just a few years ago was the yield of 16mp sensors.”

  36. I may be a bit of the odd duck here, but I own two of the Leica CL cameras and several Leica TL lenses (18mm, 23mm, 35mm, & 11-23mm). I complement them with some APS-C Sigma lenses (18-50mm f2.8, 56mm f1.4).

    I love the way the Leica CL handles and is so fluid in operation.

    I use these lenses on the Leica CL with excellent results. I also pair all these lenses on a Sigma fpL (61mp), which with an APS-C lens yields dng files of about 40mb and jpgs of about 12-15mb. For me, the resulting Sigma files are rich in detail and I love the sensor’s black & white renderings.

    While the Sigma fp (24mp) and Sigma fpL are quirky, their small size with the APS-C lenses makes for an excellent in-hand camera. I photograph equally from the LCD and with the Sigma EVF-11. While the haptics and button/dial positions are not as straightforward as the Leica CL, all the key functions are immediately accessible.

    The Sigma fpL without the EVF-11 and Leica 18mm make a small, unobtrusive, and light weight combination.

    I bought the Sigma fp L specifically to use with APS-C lenses, while also giving me 61mp when I choose to use it with full frame lenses.

    And full frame lenses on the Sigma fp (24mp) still yield dng files of around 15mb, which just a few years ago was the yield of 16mp sensors.

    I do hope, like so many others, that Leica continues developing APS-C cameras and lenses. I especially look forward to a possible Leica CL 2.

    All of this is a long way of saying that while I hope my two Leica CL continue photographing for years (I love using them), having the Sigma fp and Sigma fp L, I have broadened and extended the utility and lifespan of my APS-C lenses.

    Digital cameras come and go. For me, lenses are the key investment. Quality optics, well cared for, moving from digital camera to digital camera preserves the utility of that investment (and enjoyment).

  37. The fact that we have pages and pages of conjecture and hearsay across multiple social media platforms tells you one important thing when it comes to Leica, its staff, its suppliers, its dealers, and its customers. Stefan Daniels has lost control of the company’s narrative. All of us on these social media platforms now controls what the world thinks about Leica, not the company…

    • Quite frankly, it would appear that Leica doesn’t give a damn… Every so many weeks/months a probably carefully organized leak surfaces that an anonymous Wetzlar insider has confirmed that the CL2 will indeed get discontinued and on these very pages a much less anonymous and well-informed source has already confirmed to not hold our breaths… It seems to be the way Leica operates. As a customer I would personally prefer much clearer communication and additionally a way forward. Leica does not appear to be interested… I mentioned above that Sony has halted production of a lot of models. They have clearly communicated that each time and long before running out of stock. Kudos to Sony for the transparency and the clear communication.

      • I agree about communication. Nothing is ever discontinued and those buyers who don’t keep their ear close to the ground are suckered into buying end-of-line models, such as the CL and, heaven forfend, the lenses, without a clear understanding of where they stand. Leica seems interested in selling only cameras costing £5,000 or more.

        And lens prices are bordering on the outrageous, despite the suggestion that they are absolutely the best and must therefore cost a fortune. Look at, say, a Leica SL 35 or 50mm Summicron. Excellent, perfect probably, but the 35mm is SEVEN times as expensive as a Sigma 35mm f/2 contemporary. Is it 80% as good, or is it 90% as good as the Leica? It’s certainly not just 14% as good as the Leica in terms of performance. You pays your money and you takes your choice but…

        • I have the Sigma and Panasonic lenses for my SL as they are much lighter, but also so very good that I cannot imagine any genuine Leica made SL Lenses could actually be better, but could they? I wish I knew, but sadly I am unlikeley to find out unless some kind person gives me the chance to do a back to back test.

  38. Don’t wait Leica admitting any strategy failure. But were do dreams go?… Dream great, pack small

  39. Mike, you may well be right in your assumptions. However you fail to address the mitigating circumstances.

    First, over the past two years, Covid-19 and its variants, have slowed down production and continuity of support in many businesses. With Covid cases rising steeply again, worldwide, most industrial and commercial plans are taking a long-term hit.

    Second, and more significantly, a war is raging in Europe with devastating consequences. Global sanctions have yet to reveal their true effect on global trade, manufacturing, and distribution. Energy supply risks have yet to be fully quantified, let alone remedied. The world is shifting to a new order.

    Third, add the devastating impact global warming is having in the world today, and you quickly recognize how our lives are changing, in most far-reaching ways.

    You can extrapolate and take your speculation on the future of a mere Leica product line into any stream of consumer goods and reach a worrying conclusion. Priorities are shifting. Investors in Leica might move their investments elsewhere as oligarchs take cover and stop spending. Leica, as a business, might be in survival mode. Let us enjoy our hobby as best we can and with what we possess.

    Finally, spare a thought, or donation, for those millions of people whose lives have been lost or torn apart, in an unprovoked war. The financial impact will reach far beyond Eastern Europe.

    • David, All valid points of course.

      But I was dealing with a relatively isolated and straightforward manufacturing/marketing decision. World events are always in the background, but I prefer to keep the focus of Macfilos on less weighty issues. We are exposed to endless coverage of doom and gloom in the general press, so I see no conflict in remaining parochial and enjoying our bit of escapism. I think it is essential to forget, for a moment.

      What think other readers? Should we bring mitigating circumstances and the word’s woes into our articles?

      • Hi Mike, in this particular case if the CL is confirmed as discontinued I feel the only one to blame is really Leica because of incompetent product management, lack of vision and direction, non-existing marketing and the inability to explain the benefits of the product to a wider audience (starting with DPR). Not need to drag Covid-19, the war and global warming into this. This one is entirely on Leica in my opinion.

        • A near complete lack of much needed firmware updates should have told us Leica are not interested in after care for existing customers, instead they simply move on leaving us holding Leica’s obsolete baby’s

      • These are exceptional times. We cannot survive in a bubble. I am certainly not absolving Leica from blame. It is in their interest to be honest and open on such issues when their future survival is at stake., I also agree with your general point on separating world affairs from normal Macfilos business. In this case I fear world events are making many businesses vulnerable. A global energy crisis could immobilise electric vehicles and manufacturing; then we are back to basics, with serious consequences for us all.

  40. Fuji will continue to be the player to watch in the APSC market. This year is the tenth anniversary of the first X model. It is likely there will be a BSI, higher resolution chip with yet another update to the processor. I suspect you are right Mike and the eulogy for the CL will be required before too long. It’s never going to compete on price or capability with the Fuji X offerings in the future.

  41. Oh dear! All this gloom and doom just when I had decided that my next camera would be a CL when I had done sufficient gear-shedding to pay part of the price! The CL should have been an X-L instead of a stand-alone new venture. Perhaps the presaged demise of the CL will mean a spate of good quality used ones at a lower price-point?

    • Even knowing that the CL is already dead (or do we go all optimistically Monty Python and cite the Norwegian Blue and “I’m not dead yet!”?) I would still buy a (used) CL and TL lenses.

      There’s a basic goodness there that is worth acquiring and using for as long as it all lasts. Mine will stay in the fold until it cannot be repaired economically or some fabuloso new camera will take the TL lenses and make them shine anew.

    • Go for it! The CL is a lovely camera, but do add a grip and some 3M rubber “nipples” so you can handle it with a wrist strap. If Leica discontinues development they are being very short-sighted. The SL2 is obviously a great camera, but the form factor is ugly. Maybe a Q3-L mount is the way forward?

  42. I love the Leica CL particularly as a travel camera where a small bag easily carries the CL and three or four lenses. It would be a shame to see the demise of the CL but the roaring success of the Q line of cameras clearly hasn’t helped. I sold my TL a couple of years ago but regret that a bit now, but maybe a good secondhand TL2 will pop up somewhere. My concern with the L mount series is both Leica and Panasonic seem to be stubbornly sticking with their contrast based focusing systems supposedly to maintain image quality. This seems to be a very marginal trade off in quality for a significant reduction in utility. Secondly, Leica does not seem to have a lens road map for the L mount lenses with no new developments announced for a few years now, and a very slow roll out of the full Summicron range. This has an uncanny resemblance to the TL lens development history.

  43. Point I was making or trying to is NIKON z line, like DSLR line goes all the way from dx to fx and z6,7 have been just as successful if not more than Q for Leica. Leica is retreating from dx and will loose customers that others w gain, the fx mirrorless z9 blows Canon 1dx out of the water., I don’t know beans on SONY ONLY ONE I LIKED THEY LEFT HANGIng RX1R 11 with that goofy pop up view finder w cup u attached but couldn’t close if you did.

  44. Well Leica would be crazy to stick a a 35,or 50 on a Q type body because no one would then buy an M, the SL is still to heavy and I think the Z9 flagship from NIKON is going to do serious damage to all camera companies. The more I read on that beast and at its price point I just wonder if this isn’t my next camera instead Q2!

    • Hi John, this is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are great in their market segments. Sort of like choosing between a great motorcycle and a great car.

    • Hi John, I think Nikon is more than a wee bit late to damage anyone. I think they missed the mirrorless memo. I do like Nikon better than Nikon but Nikon and Canon are trampling Nikon for the general full frame market. Leica will thrive in their separate market.

      • I meant to say Sony and Canon are trampling Nikon much to my sorrow. I prefer Nikon to both but Nikon was sleeping sort of like Leica product management. Hey, maybe they have the same product management!

  45. A used CL like new with an Elmarit 18 is worth something like an M8. A pity. Maybe when definitely discontinued CL can be again appreciated

  46. I might add that based on the number of promotions for the SL2/S that this model is now on at least a saline drip, has been defibrillated a few times and is questionable based on comments on the internet about its unnecessary weight and size. Those comments inevitably seem to end in the word “Sony” if you prefer more compact high performance FF equipment.

    Is the SL2/S the next Leica domino to fall?

    • Hi, I do not see Leica SL2 failing. I used to own a Sony system along with my Leica M system when I thought SL system was too limiting. I never got on with Sony colour science. Try to get natural skin tones. Try to get natural sky tones at the same time as other colours. Try to press buttons with thin gloves on – I live in Canada where everyone thinks we live in igloos. Try to navigate Sony incompressible menus. However, I do not have a problem if you like Sony but do not think your preference means the demise of other companies. I think Sony will be successful but they are certainly not my choice after suffering with quite a large system. The only reason I suffered with Sony was Leica was too limiting until they did the brilliant L mount consortium. It is probably the only intelligent move by Leica product management- probably an accident. But a brilliant move.
      Sony has a lot of brilliant glass but I personally would not move back even if they gave me a free A1 or whatever. Colour and haptics are everything for me and they do not check either box.

  47. What’s interesting is that B&H claim that CL stock is inbound, so I guess we can spend time on conjecture but until Stefan Daniel stops hiding behind the couch and tells, partners/suppliers, dealers, owners and would be buyers that the APSC is no more then we will continue to live in limbo.

    If no longer manufactured then a new Owner wanting a new Leica (possibly stepping up from a PanaLeica) will have to find over $6,000. I think common sense let alone business sense tells you that buyer will more likely take the less steep step and buy something like a Fuji X* range camera.

    That means the sales pyramid for Leica starts much higher and begins with a “One and Done” camera that requires no additional lenses so the sales opportunity is minimal until a new version comes along.

    You have to hope that Leica sees a way to recouping their APSC investment by possibly partnering with Sigma. Leica “trades” the CL2 and TL lens range IP to Sigma for a share in the joint venture. Sigma manufactures the CL2 under under license from Leica but can also sell their own tweaked version of the same camera.

    If properly marketed (something Leica seem incapable of doing) then the new model could simply fit under the idea of “Versatility”. Think of all the lenses that can be attached directly to the CL, from vintage to modern M to secondary branded lenses to Panasonic and Sigma lenses to even Sumo-sized SL lenses. That’s a lot of flexibility and growth potential for a new buyer and the continuation CL/TL owner that fits photographic style and wallet.

    The benefits are there, and no one can say the APSC market is not viable, when we know how successful Fuji is and the fact they are launching a revamped range of X cameras with a brand new sensor.

    Sadly is suspect Leica’s inexperience at this kind of product planning means they have given up and left current owners, dealers and suppliers high and dry.

    • I read this and was formulating my response when I found your comments resonated with me.

      I think the chink now appearing in Leica’s armour is there is no X style camera to counter the Fuji offering – in reality I have been yearning a Leica CL Chassis with the X typ 113 lens (or similar) for years, quite literally – in essence a Fuji X competitor. The reality is, I recently researched the Fuji variation of my X typ 113, purely because I have suffered the battery retaining clip failure issue. I am still using the X with a piece of tissue pushing the battery firmly home. This seems to be a common fix, while I see if Leica will sell me the pieces to fix it.

      But if that fails, my next camera, could potentially be a Fuji, as the niche I love is not filled by a current Leica. Assuming of course at some point my X fails owing to a lack of parts.

      I suspect you are right in the assessment that, Leica’s entry point with a T/CL/X series camera is now the Q – not a huge market to be fishing in, as the lower entry point camera’s will possibly lead to Q/M or SL sales. How many times do we find people in these forums who have bought in the lower ranges and then miraculously bought into the upper tier over time.

    • That and ’boutique Berties’. The difference with the film days is that we are always discussing new cameras when we still have cameras that work. If Leica or any other manufacturer had a ready made market that would justify the R+D costs then surely they would introduce new models. There are also some current ‘structural’ issues out there, including inflation, chip shortages, Covid and ‘World War III’ which would make any manufacturer wary about introducing new models at this point in time. So, I feel that the new product announcements for digital cameras will be thin for some time. Whether this will fatten at any time in the future will very much depend on how sustainable the market for cameras might be at that time.

      William

  48. Hi Mike, an excellent and informative article on Leica APS-C from beginning to likely end.

    At this point, if I wanted APS-C, I would buy Fujifilm. They have lots of choice in cameras and glass.

    Oh, I just remembered that I recently bought a Fujifilm X100V and it is a delight. The images processed in C1 are gorgeous. Not so impressed with Lightroom processing.

    • Thanks, Brian. I have always admired Fujifilm. But I do wonder about the wider future for APS-C. For all manufacturers other than Fuji, APS-C is an also-ran. Fuji is hoist on the petard of its own success with the X models. It was this success that persuaded Fuji to opt out of full-frame and go medium format instead. I’m not sure that was a wise move. Panasonic made the right choice, running MFR and FF together. Currently, Olympus and Fuji share the same problem of being a one-sensor show in the area of manageable everyday cameras.

      • Hi Mike, I think Fujifilm will be the last APS-C system standing and will continue to thrive. They have a devoted following not unlike Leica but in the generally affordable range. They have a number of lenses that are wonderful. They had file processing issues with Lightroom for discerning photographers in the early days unless they used alternative software first. However, compatibility has significantly improved but C1 is noticeably better. If I was not a Leica M person, I would now buy a Fujifilm system for my compact camera. By the way, my M11 finally shipped this morning – pretty excited to get my ultimate M.

    • Hi Brian, I fully agree but the bigger question is whether you would strategically buy an ICL APC-C system right now? I am not sure about that. If Sony had put a better EVF in the A7C it could have been game over for most of the APS-C market (except perhaps Ricoh). The A7C is the same size as the Sony APS-C cameras and it gives you access to the recent relatively compact (and excellent) 24m and 35mm GM lenses.

      • I agree. I sold off my A7c because of the tiny EVF. I’m now using a dinky x-e4 with 2 amazing lenses in their own way, a small 27/2.8 and 18/1.4 which gives Q a run.
        I still do have the full frame itch and hoping to buy an a7iv when the stock is available. The sheer number of lenses available for the E mount is exciting for me as I love to play with different lenses.

        • Last year there were rumors that development on the a7c ii had started, it would be based upon the a7iv and with a bigger EVF than the a7c. Target date was one year after the release of the a7iv. With the current chip and parts shortages who knows what will happen though?

        • About the Sony glass I am actually trying out the Sony 35mm f1.4 GM right now. I am pretty impressed. Sony has really come a long way. It is a very very good lens. Compared to the Summicron-SL 35mm it is slightly more compact, about 200g lighter, 1 stop faster, auto focus is much better, it comes with a true aperture ring and it is exactly 1/4th of the price ($1,300 versus $5,200).

      • I would buy an interchangeable Fujifilm system today as a compact camera to my SL2 system if I was not a passionate M person. But the M is rightfully here for the foreseeable future along with the Fujifilm system. I think the Leica CL is on life support due to Leica product management interest competence. However, If I owned a CL system, I would not flush it if i was content with my options. The cameras and glass will outlive me. Seriously.

        • The CL isn’t going anywhere, my SL might be in much bigger danger on the other hand… With regards to Fuji, you are probably right, I don’t see them abandoning APS-C any time soon if ever. That being said they are 100% reliant on Sony for their sensors as far as I know, not exactly a power position either…

  49. So, why they took the road while previously knowing it was a dead end?, cause as you mention L lenses were always intended as a full-frame mount.
    And what’s the difference between a Fuji X and the CL?, … if you can do exactly the same with both, the fact is you also can do exactly the same with every Fuji X model (same sensor and processor in nearly every of the last versions).
    Will life after death of CL be long?

    • In some ways, the father of the T was probably the L-mount, simply because it was already there (waiting for the SL) and could be adapted. Without this mount, an APS-C system camera would not have been possible because all Leica had at the time was the M-mount. So, if Leica had not aspired to the SL, they would never have embarked on an APS-C system. This could have led to a more satisfactory programme of fixed-lens APS-C, perhaps leading to an APS-C Q, complete with viewfinder of course, that could well have been very successful.

      • Hmm, that makes a lot of sense.
        Perhaps the formula CL = APSCQ – L would solve the philosophical point

  50. One word on Sony. Because of the chip shortage Sony has halted production and/or discontinued ALL of its APS-C cameras. The A7C was widely seen as the camera that would replace its APS-C line-up but in the meanwhile the production of the A7C itself has already been halted as well (not confirmed as discontinued yet though). The strategy of Sony is very unclear at this point in time.

      • Hi Mike, The Nikon A7c was not available shortly after announcement due to parts shortage. It would seem that Sony decided to shift emphasis of parts to a subset of it’s cameras. My favourite camera store in Canada says they have a lot of people waiting more than 3 to 6 months for their camera or lens to come in for various manufacturers.

        I am waiting on a Leica m 90mm APO that has been paid for before the April fools day price increase in North America. Normally, I would not buy this, but the evf with the M11 is what sold me.

  51. I guess we should know soon enough. In the US B&H, Adorama and Leica Store Miami are all out of stock. All kit offerings (w/ the 18-56 or the 18) have already been confirmed as discontinued. Either the stores will get more stock or there will be some confirmation that the CL bodies also have been discontinued, the latter unfortunately being more likely I feel.

    • Out of stock is one thing, and we’ve seen that frequently over the past few months. But “discontinued” as in the latest B&H listing, is pretty unambiguous. Of course, it could be argued that B&H has decided not to stock the CL, therefore they have unilaterally discontinued it. But it’s more than likely they are just good at reading those tea leaves.

      • Hi Mike, it does not say Discontinued (yet) for the bodies, only for the kits and they truly have been discontinued. For the bodies (both silver and black) it still says “More on the Way. Expected availability: 2-4 months”. Leica Store Miami says “Out of stock” and Adorama says “Temporarily On Backorder”.

        • I may have misread. I was looking at the clip on Leica Rumors. But I stand by my conclusion. I think there will be no more APS-C cameras from Leica. It’s just a matter of time until stock is sold.

          • No disagreement there. They might find a few more bodies here or there stuck somewhere in the supply chain and re-route them but it is not going to change to final picture.

          • It was just for kits but If B&H does not carry something the writing is on the wall. It looks like Leica will give up on APS-C -no kits smells strongly-and will quietly exit market. Stefan is probably not appearing in person at this point. Rumours have it that he has changed his name..

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here