Rumour mongering is not high on my list of pastimes. But when I see pronouncements about a screenless M arriving later this month I am immediately involved. Ever since my discussion with Stefan Daniel at Photokina in 2014 I have had the impression that the all-steel M60 was a suck-it-and-see moment for Leica. I came away with a conviction that a screenless, stripped-to-the-bones M would be produced if the demand existed. I think it does; and I have written several times about the possibility of such a device. I have no inside information on this, I am purely responding to rumours already published.
When I first heard tell of the lighter, non-live-view M262 I was convinced it would be the M60-lite. On that occasion I was decidedly wrong, but I still held true to the prospect of a really simple M that would appeal to those of us who still use film cameras. The prospect of just two primary settings—aperture and shutter speed—is strangely beguiling. Add in ISO (although it would be nice to see an auto-ISO setting, missing from the M60) and we have all we need to make pictures.
If the rumours are right, we could well see a new ultra-basic M in our near future. I fully expect it to be a ringer for the M262 but sans screen. Wouldn’t it be great, though, if Leica has gone the whole hog and shaved a bit of girth as well as weight? I have said on many occasions that the holy grail would be an M3 lookalike with a sensor in place of the film. We can only hope.
Hamish Gill on the M60 Edition
Yet more speculation: Leica M-D
I’ll start by saying I’m for anything that makes Leica money and keeps them in business.
If this is not a special edition like the M60, but a mass production camera without an LCD, it has to be at a price point below the M262, currently at $5,195 in the US, and £3,950.00 in Mike’s back yard. How could it not be?
If Leica priced the camera at $4,195 in the US would that push those on the fence? Could it become a more economical second body for others? Does this camera become the analog to the mythical Konost?
I understand the desire to replicate the look and feel of the classic M body, which was part of my rejection of the M240 over the M9. Mostly it was cost vs benefit.
With an M60 or its lineage I would struggle with two issues:
Inability to shoot in auto ISO while in manual mode. I’ve come to see this as the ultimate shooting mode. Digital has liberated us from being locked into one speed setting for the entire roll. I can set the optimal shutter speed and aperture for the image I’m trying to capture and let the camera choose the ISO necessary. I still need to be mindful of the light and how the meter reads the scene, then I can override the ISO with the EV setting.
Not being able to see a histogram. The Leica sensor in the 262 is still susceptible to banding at high ISOs if not exposed properly. Being careful to ETTR when possible makes a difference.
The argument from 240 owners is to disable the video button and just don’t use live view, which would be my argument for the 262 over an M60 child. I can argue I don’t want video or use live view. I can’t argue that to some people those are wanted or useful features. Those are enhancements that don’t diminish the ability to make the best possible exposure. The M60 cripples my ability to use the camera to digital’s fullest potential in an M body.
What if this new body was available for $2,000 USD less than a 262? With the limitations I cited would that tempt me as a second body? Possibly.
Could the next generation M body forgo live view and video, with Leica using their latest processor and sensor, simply upgrading the 262 body? With the Q and SL do they need a movie M? Then a new body based off the M60 becomes the purist’s option, at a before unheard of price in the Leica world.
All interesting points, Jim. I agree with you on auto ISO (although there would be no menu to set the parameters) and I think the sweet spot would be a digital version of the M7.
As for price, let’s not get too excited. The M262 lists at £4,050 in the UK and the M7 or MP costs £3,600. The new camera is unlikely to be cheaper than the film cameras but, equally, it would need to be cheaper than the M262. I forecast £3,800.
Still, it’s a potential excitement for us.
Interesting Jim, it would be the cherry on top if the new camera had auto ISO.
However, even without it the ability to choose that ISO, dependent on the prevailing light at the time, is an advantage over film. Film can usually only be shot at the stated speed, or in some cases, pushed a stop and still developed as one roll under a single set of development parameters…
e.g. T-Max can be pushed from 400 – 800 mid roll and then developed as one roll. Notwithstanding the "stand development" process which allows for the development of several rolls with a mixture of pushes and pulls and ASA settings, all in the one bath.
The whole point of this camera, is not to make things easy, rather it is like having a fully manual car, without power steering, brake assistance, automatic gearbox… etc. The operator has to consider the tools that he has in his hands, rather than expect the computer to do stuff for him…
This is the M tradition, the light meter is useful, but I am not sure the other features are not more of a hindrance…
Removing the rear display is the key to all of it, as soon as that is done, leaving the shooter having to wait until returning to the lab/computer, ensures that one thinks before shooting.
Of course, I agree one hundred percent that this is not for everyone, and for those that do not want to play, there are thousands of other more fully featured machines available…
This is truly the digital version of the MP…
I suppose for the absolutist, Leica could produce the digital counter to the M-A, sans light meter. And I would have to say, that would be a step too far for me. I have spent nearly a year with one camera, one lens…. M2/50mm DR Cron (OCOLOY), and I still make too many mistakes with the light. I suppose I am too old to learn now.
But all in all, I do want to be able to kick myself for making the odd mistook, for me this is part of the fun.
This just about sums up the appeal of the M-D (or whatever it is called). I thoroughly agree and I could see this camera satisfying many film buffs who would not otherwise consider digital photography. The more they can make the camera look like, feel like and work like an MP, M7 or M6, the more popular will be the appeal.
Stephen, you make good points and I can see how this is a niche within a niche that could appeal to certain people. If Leica keeps refining the M262 that’s all I ask. The M60 shows nothing is off the table.
Imagine Leica takes the 262, removes the LCD and the motor to recock the shutter, going back to a wind lever. Imagine the Leica haters as their heads explode. With the battery only powering the sensor and the VF LEDs, I wonder how long a battery would last?
Mike, that VAT is a killer. I paid a far bit less than the cost of the £ M7/MP. But you will not be financially ruined if you get sick like I would, so it’s probably still a better deal for you in the long run…
Hmm that is an interesting scenario Jim…
As a matter of fact, I was a little concerned when Mike suggested that he had been wrong about the upcoming M-D(?), and that it didn’t look like it was going to happen any time soon… That is, until the Leica Rumors report on Thursday. Huawei!
Following a good deal of internet trawling, I remembered, or rather put together a few stories and tidbits, and I recalled the story about Kodak and their early forays into the concept of digital image recording. They initially used a combination of Nikon and Canon hardware and installed their digital back, as indeed did Leica just before their R series cameras were "disappeared"… The DMR? As indeed do the medium format boys.
So what was going through my mind was, could I replace the film in a manual M camera, with a digital sensor?
If there is one thing I have learned from my OCOLOY, it is that I really don’t like film any more… If I want a "film look" simply for artistic purposes, I can do that with the various computer programs that are available for much less cash than a decent Nikon/Minolta/Hasselblad scanner… Products such as the NIK suite come to mind, there are others too, as well as such "looks" built in to Lightroom, Capture One, the free Photos (Mac OSX) and so on.
It was it seems an early idea of Leica, to produce such a device for the M camera, something that would clip into place where the cassette and takeup spool were installed, and of course the full frame sensor sitting in front or the cloth shutter…
Presumably, the lack of a full frame sensor, along with heat dissipation problems, and actually fitting the whole shebang into such a small space were among the reasons why Leica never went ahead with that… Perhaps it is also why the digital cameras are deeper front to back than the film M’s? I would imagine that such a device would also hamper their ability to sell new cameras… And I do not blame them for that either.
Such a device, had it ever emerged blinking into the light, would presumably have been just how you imagined it, with the same quiet M2 type shutter that is manually cocked… A fantastic idea.
But we are where we are.
Your wish is my command:
https://www.macfilos.com/photo/2014/9/26/leica-beware-ollie-and-his-frankencamera-could-beat-you-to-it
One reader, Treve Kneebone, actually subscribed to Ollie’s Kickstart project but I don’t think we’ve heard anything from Brighton since I wrote the article. This reminds me to ask what is going on.
Mike
Huawei…(the lads).
If true, especially with the auto ISO, although not absolutely vital… I will be in the queue too Mike.
It would be a very interesting camera and I too agree that it would be great to get the camera back to the M3 size. I am getting a few enquires about making M60 cases – having make one so far. If they go for this camera I will surely be making a case for it as soon as i can get my hands on one.
That’s very interesting, Paul. Of course, the big problem with the M60 is the lack of strap lugs–something I don’t think we’ve seen since the days of the Leica I in the late 20s. So if the Edition is to be used it absolutely needs a case (with strong fastenings, I suggest!). I will certainly be interested in buying an M60-lite if it appears. I’ve been banging on about it for so long it would be churlish not to get one. I might even sell the M-P!