Rangefinder versus EVF: Is the SL2-S the better M11?

Perfect! It’s exactly what I was looking for and I stumbled upon it by chance. I am a travel photographer and I use SL2s with M lenses. I use them both for the pleasure of focusing and for their compactness and because I hate the autofocus of the SL2s. I love this camera, however I have always dreamed of traveling with an M around my neck.. but I realize that for my photography style I would probably often need the EVF on the M body and honestly it would make no sense. Thanks for this great article.

Thanks, Peter, for your feedback. We will see what Leica has on its roadmap. I am doubtful if they will commit what many might call a sacrilege and drop the optical-only viewfinder in the M line (by the way, it is important for justifying the high prices of the cameras). But there are many users who would love to get exactly this: an M body with electronic or hybrid viewfinder. We will see what the future brings. JP

Hi,

Thanxs for the article.
I have worked with many cameras, analog, digital, big and small formats and there is something that I learned, it’s always possible that you forget something at home: a battery, film, sd card, evf. So for me as a person that tends to “forget” things because I am into pictures , I would love to have a hybrid viewfinder on the m12. Why hybrid? Because sometimes it’s a joy to see the real picture and sometimes is important to verify that what you do is what you want to do. I love the way I can focus on the m system, but I also like the feedback that the Sl2s gives me. I habe the picture I can move on. The only thing that is important is latency. This should be very small.
So if this would be produced (OVF with EVF) , I would defiantly buy it. I bought an Fuji xpro2 because of this. I enjoy the camera, but the latency is sometime to high. Wen can still have the extra Evf for low level or high level shooting. And to be clear. I do enjoy the experience of shooting with the M10 and I shoot the M9 and M8 too.
Thanxs
Peter

I bought several M cameras and SL2 too, the only complain I have on M is it does not have autofocus. But an autofocus lens will be big. SL2 is a good camera, but I was not impressed by its image quality, good but not anyway better than M. It is a much heavier camera with autofocus lens. But if you use M manual lens in SL2, why bother? Just use M. M is much smaller and lighter for traveling, while giving you superb images. I also bought Hasseblad X1D for its size and autofocus. While image quality is super too, it’s slow autofocus making it no improvement from M manual focus. So after going around with different models and money wasted, I still think M is the best for size, and weight and image quality.

sorry, EVF, meinte ich…

Danke für den Artikel! Schön geschrieben.
Für mich ist die Welt ziemlich einfach: Ich habe eine M240 und eine Minolta CLE. Die Minolta will ich auf jeden Fall behalten. Die 240 würde ich “eintauschen” gegen eine M11, wenn diese einen EFV und IBIS hat. EFV wie eine SL, das ist die creme-de-la-creme. Wenn nicht, dann bleibe ich gerne bei der M240, die immer noch eine feine Maschine ist!

Very nice article to review the pros and cons. My M journey started with a Leica M4-P, moved later on to the Leica M-A with Summarit 35mm, 50mm and the Elmar 90mm 2.8.
I tested every digital Leica M at the Leica Store but I never bought one, because of my aging eyes and the changes of my bi-focal diopter. I tried my Leica M lenses adapted to Fuji X-Pro2 amd I used a Nikon Z5 with a manual adapter as well the Metadap AF adapter.
Last week I stopped all these activities and I sold my Leica M equipment.
Now I am looking for the Panasonic S5 or the Leica SL2s with the Panasonic L-Mount lenses or the fixed lenses from the Sigma Contemporary product linie.

Definitely people with a big nose should go for the viewfinder at the left end. Mine is average and half center viewfinders make me feel restricted. About evf is becoming more and more friendly to use. And rangefinders, a luminous relic.

I sorely miss my M10P, but as with others, the eyes made the call. With glasses, I lost (most) frame lines; just couldn’t get close enough to the eyepiece. I tried the screw in diopters (talk about Leica tax!) which got me back the frame lines, but now it’s glasses on, glasses off, glasses on all the time. So…. give me a M11 with greater exit pupil distance and IBIS, and it would seriously tempt me back. I don’t think it’s possible to fit electronics AND the conventional RF in there, but IBIS should be possible. Maybe. Fingers crossed.

A FF Leica L-mount body that is 200-300g lighter and that supports M-glass in the same fashion as the Leica SL would IMO be a phenomenal success, even without accompanying lightweight native L lenses, they can even cripple the body and leave out IBIS and video… but sadly Leica still refuses to go there… even though with the T, Q and SL all building blocks have been in place since 6+ years now… fear of cannibalizing Q and M sales is my suspicion but who knows… first we are going to go thorough another M, yet another Q, the 21mm/24mm SL lenses,and perhaps then but who knows… ?

“When I look through the SL2 EVF with an f1.4 lens I see a foggy semblance of the scene compared to my M10”.
That’s a mysterious fog for sure! 🙂

I feel that the critical issue is side-stepped here. The M10 VF is clear and contrasty compared to the SL2 EVF. No Comparison. When I look through the SL2 EVF with an f1.4 lens I see a foggy semblance of the scene compared to my M10 (and yes I adjusted the SL2 diopter to optimum for my 20/15 vision). The SL2/SL2S cameras are more versatile in being able to use any M/ZM/VM lens, as are the CL and TL2 with excellent results. I used the Zeiss 25mm ZM and the 24mm Elmarit-M on my M10 and did not need any added finder – the entire VF frame is very close to the lens’ coverage. Wider and tele lenses and a niche preference for a 40mm lens admittedly requires some adaptation or the use of Live View and Focus Assist. The new M11 looks to rectify the complained about bottom plate issue, adding improved ergonomics and a sensor upgrade. The rangefinder M will likely continue until no longer commercially feasible to produce and then perhaps an M/EVF camera will be introduced. But, aside from format size how would it differ from the CL? Or, perhaps an updated CL2? Or, maybe an interchangeable lens Q?

By the way, I finally just received delivery of the M10 monochrom. I took it out for a test drive and find it to be the best camera I have ever owned. I now have the perfect couple: My M9 ccd and the M10 monochrom. The rendering of both is breathtaking and the shooting experience is sublime. A rangefinder provides a unique experience that I prefer within its shooting envelope.

The M11 is a rangefinder – if you look at a AF camera as a replacement then you are not looking for a rangefinder. The M11 is for those that love using a rangefinder and it provides a wonderful experience for those that are able to use it and enjoy the more immersive experience. I would like Leica to bring out an m mount camera with a built-in evf for shooting fast m glass and glass outside the 35mm and 50mm focal lengths. Generally, I shoot my m glass at f/8 so the rangefinder accuracy is not critical. I use a frankenfinder with my lovely Leica 28/5.6 as I find the rangefinder to hard to see the frame and the frankenfinder provides a huge area around the image frame so that I can anticipate the decisive moment. If I had the choice, I would use a rangefinder with my 35mm and 50mm glass and an evf m mount camera with my 21mm and 28mm m glass.

However, if I was looking for a small AF camera to use with my m glass, I would purchase the amazing Panasonic S5 which would also be a lovely alternative to endlessly waiting for a CL2.

很開心看到現在可以用母語來編寫。 優秀的文章，J-P。 我使用 M10 和 SL2，我認為每個都有自己的優點。 我仍然非常喜歡rangefinder，並在以舊方式對準焦點時感到非常滿意。

當然，我在 SL2 上使用過 M 鏡頭，但我不得不說我更喜歡這款相機的自動對焦。 SL2 有一些很棒的 L 鏡頭，而不僅僅是 Leica 的那些，我喜歡使用它們就像我喜歡 M 鏡頭一樣。我只是不相信使用更大更重的相機跟這些相對較小的鏡頭是個優點。

正如你用英語說的，horses for courses.

What a wonderful discussion, and I do own the 020 but bolt it to the top of X typ 113, boy it looks uglee – but it transforms that wonderful little beast in to a new dimension. I find that I get more keepers from using it, and less challenges with the autofocus.

I am with Jean, that I while my limited experience of the M10 was something I loved, and would love to own one, I suspect as my eyes are no longer as good as they once were, that I would buy an M if it had an EVF option, but failing that the Q has long been on my wish list for a future camera.

Thank you for starting my weekend off, with an interesting discussion piece.

Thanks Joerg-Peter for this excellent article. My eyesight and M don’t get on well. I tried both the SL2-S and Q2 at my camera dealer photoshow. The EVF is amazing on both cameras. The SL2-S is too heavy. I tried the focus-peaking on the Q2 and it’s really great. I love the tilting EVF on my X2. It is ugly but so handy to be able to shoot like a Rolleiflex. I’ll certainly go for a Q2 in the future
Jean

Great article. Just a few points. David’s suggestion about an autofocus adapter does not make sense. The obvious option for anyone who does not like to use manual focus is to buy a native autofocus camera of some kind. There are plenty of them in the market. I agree with David about the ‘ugly plastic lump’ EVF. And not only is it ugly to look at, it is also ugly to use. There have been rumours about a combined RF/EVF M camera or even sister models with a choice of EVF or RF. Time will tell about that. For my arthritic hands, the SL is just too big. I don’t mind using large or even medium format cameras on tripods, but for a walking around camera, the SL is too big for me and when large and heavy lenses are added that increases the number of downsides. The Leica M is a perfect camera for me and RF will work for me so long as my eyes hold up, even if it is a ‘living fossil’. 10-15 years ago, when I was working in Qatar, I had no trouble lugging large Nikon D2s and D3s with heavy long lenses to sports events at weekends, but those days are long behind me now.

William

.
“..a coelacanth..” ..what a perfect description! ..Usually the ‘M’s are called dinosaurs, but that huge massive size and weight ..but ‘coelacanth’ is perfectly spot-on ..they still exist, but they are ‘living fossils’ ..almost extinct, but not quite yet..

As for the ‘carbuncle’ EVF on top of the M10, it does the job, but it’s incredible that the firm which – supposedly! – prides itself on svelte and stylish products actually sells – and under its own brand name! – such an ugly plastic lump! When it suits Leica, the PR people say how wonderful the old-style products are (wonderful silent shutter, slips into a coat pocket, etc) but when they create something truly awful (the noisy shutter of the M8 and M9) then they keep completely schtumm about the (better) predecessor products!

What the ‘M’ series needs ..how often do I need to say this?.. is (a) the autofocus capability of a BUILT IN ‘Techart’-like adaptor (which lets you use M lenses on, say, a Sony camera) ..but with the choice of using it or not; traditionalists can stick with manual focus ..present-day photographers can turn on auto-focus.

Oh, and (b).. a built-in, but ‘defeatable’ (turn off-able) combined optical and electronic finder.

If Leica cast(s) their combined minds back to – wibble-wobble-wavy-optical-dissolve – 1954 (..that’s three years short of seventy years!..) they may remember that Leitz introduced a ‘combined viewfinder’ – or, as J-P says, a ‘Messsucher’ (Meßsucher, or ‘measuring finder’) – which showed the view of a 50mm lens (now usually a 28mm view) but combined with overlays to show the view seen by 90mm and a 135mm lens! Wow! What a daring, progressive, modern idea – for 1954.

So, nearly 74 years later, wouldn’t it be similarly and suitably ‘daring’ to abandon that 1954 technology, and to offer an old-style ‘optical’ view-finder, along with 21st century electronic tech?

We no longer rely on purely mechanical cameras – not for digital photography, anyway – and we’re all used to having a rechargeable battery to make the camera work. So let’s do what Leica (then ‘Leitz’) did nearly 74 years ago, and ‘upgrade’ the camera, for the next model, instead of sticking with a truly ‘living fossil’!

L’idée même de comparer un boitier télémétrique avec un boitier réflex ou EVF me semble sans issue car ces outils répondent à des besoins différents. De mon point de vue, il faut voir les boitiers M comme résultats d’une évolution historique et pour comprendre l’usage d’un boitier M, il suffit de faire des photos avec un vissant : très peu d’optiques au choix, boitier compact permettant une visée instinctive avec un bon taux de réussite si réglage hyperfocal, et possibilité dans les cas qui s’imposent de bien régler la mise au point pourvu qu’on ne soit pas pressé. En plus ce sont des boitiers compacts et d’une rare robustesse, éternellement réparables.
Avec un M on construit l’image un peu à l’instinct; avec un réflex (ou EVF), on construit l’image avec l’optique, via le viseur. On peut en plus disposer librement de toutes les focales les plus extrêmes.
A titre humoristique, observons qu’avec un smartphone, on ne construit rien du tout, on est soumis à une technologie de courte durée de vie à tous points de vue…

Guten Abend JP. Thank you for generously sharing your opinions. Wonderful piece of writing. In that in your articulate way, you raised more questions than provided answers. The rangefinder is possibly more rooted in history than the SLR. And Leica has despite being in the modern age, clung to tradition more than most. They seem to have achieved a modicum of success with the Q2 but have been rather cautious introducing changes into their M cameras. I am a half decade away before I turn 50, but increasingly I realise the benefits of having auto focus and live view EVF. I’ve never owned a Leica to date, though a M3 looms around the corner. Perhaps soon. And my second Leica would undoubtedly be a Leica M-P. The promise of video and possibly having a new sensor somehow doesn’t make a M11 appealing. Perhaps they need to make paradigm shift. I subscribe to Reid Reviews as well and there’s a lot of good stuff to read on his website. Prost JP !