After months of speculation, during which stocks of CL and TL2 cameras and lenses have gradually been run down, Leica appears, at last, to have acknowledged that APS-C and Wetzlar will no longer be mentioned in the same breath. The company has issued what it calls a “Reactive Statement on the Phasing Out of the CL-/TL2-System” which, we presume, is for the benefit of staff who are fending off enquiries from the press, public and, even, distributors. Meanwhile, the two models continue to be featured on the Leica website with no hint that they are for the chop.
Here at Macfilos predicted the end of Leica’s APS-C range in March this year and the article has so far attracted over 145 reader comments. They are worth browsing because they contain a microcosm of views on Leica’s record with APS-C cameras, from the X1 in 2009 to the latest CL range which has remained largely moribund since its announcement in 2017.
On May 17 Leica Rumors unearthed what purported to be an official letter outlining the company’s thoughts on the lack of future for APS-C and this has now been picked up by the general press, including this article in Britain’s Amateur Photographer magazine.
There is now no doubt that the TL2 and CL are dead and that Leica does not intend to dabble further in the world of APS-C, instead concentrating on the increasing popularity of full-frame photography. With the M, SL and Q now the sole protagonists in the Leica line-up, we are now not far from the position where the cheapest Leica camera (other than the Panaleica compacts) will cost £5,000.
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The CL and TL2 cameras are a product series that lags far behind their competitors in terms of design. Products that do not reflect the Leica spirit. It’s so obvious that they were definitely made for those who want to own cheap leica. The Leica CM point-and-shoot cameras in the analog era are more leica spirit than the CL and TL2 and create a desire to own. For example, apsc is also much better than Fuji’s X100 series CL and TL2.
You can argue that the CL and TL2 were made for people who want to own a “cheap” Leica. But you can also argue for most people the CL and TL2 were simply not competitive enough against the likes of Fuji.
The lack of development by Leica in both body and lenses for several years should have given us enough clues that nothing new was coming. Sad, but if you can’t afford to be a player leave your seat at the table for someone who wants to be there and can afford to be there.
I think CL was never thought as a residual product but rather as a real alternative for instance to M users, as it was later confirmed
Is the last Fuji launch somehow approaching FF, or at least trying to settle a new apsc standard? The X H2S is out its common range. I do not like it, but what is that exactly? Price approaching to Leica, shape approaching to say Nikon, just for videographers? Stacked sensor? Seeing what others do with apsc because Leica do just nothing
Interesting to note how so very soon after Leica decided the APSC format had no future the likes of Fuji, Sony, Canon and now Nikon have all been throwing huge amounts of money time and effort into releasing many more superbly specified mirror-less APSC format cameras and lenses than they are into the full frame ranges.
Given few of us nowadays are wishing to carry the sheer weight around of the almost inevitably larger and heavier full frame systems around, plus with more and more photo takers deserting camera systems altogether in favor of mobile phones I cant help but feel APSC is the future for cameras if there is one, and that Leica have gone the wrong way
It is indeed strange. There seems to be lots of life left in the old APS-C dog just when Leica is pulling out.
It’s sad to see. What we have been told is that APSC is a shrinking category. Not so if you look at Fuji (a whole line of refreshed models with new sensor tech still to be launched) and the “power” brands launching new models.
Then all we here is that in the face of declining sales Leica could do nothing. There’s always something you can do beyond repeating “can’t complain, mustn’t grumble”. If Leica did not have the budget to develop a new version of the CL that’s disturbing.
Some of the financial data shared elsewhere shows that Leica invested proportionality less in R&D than other companies typically do. That’s a broad brush stroke but if you were an investor that would cause you to ask a lot more questions.
We can only hope that Panasonic/LUMIX will pick up the slack on APSC and that at a minimum Leica will set some sensor and UI criteria for this camera that might also be badged Leica as the DL models are.
I don’t think we can expect anything from Panasonic/LUMIX. They took the logical decision to concentrate on MFT and FF, probably because there isn’t room for both MFT and APS-C from one manufacturer. Fuji faced the same problem in that FF would not have worked well with APS-C in their opinion, but which isn’t shared by Nikon/Canon etc) and they decided to leapfrog over to MF.
I quite frankly don’t see Panasonic picking up APS-C, Sigma would be a more realistic option as they are already making APS-C lenses for the L-mount… I am just wondering whether the m43 cooperation between Panasonic and Leica is going to be the blueprint for L-squared as well, ie. Panasonic does all R&D and Leica rebadges, within that context it would totally make sense for Leica to exit APS-C as they would not being any R&D anymore at all or very little, too early to tell I guess, wait and see… I believe Nikon just announced the Z30 today, if I am not mistaking their 3rd APS-C, clearly a market that is dead….
Hugh Brownstone (“Three Blind Men and An Elephant Productions” on YouTube) still hoping that Panasonic or Sigma will step in. “Is the Leica CL Still Worth It in 2022?”. Interesting video I thought. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czatKS1aLsk
Interesting, thanks. As he says it’s not what it lacks but it has… no FF, no ISIS etc. Same in my opinion to the lack of evf in M models
Well, formally they seem to have reached an end. But they must keep on servicing and obviously selling last units. Also, whether being or not much or less profitable, they put something in the market that now users just miss: modern ergonomics and enviable size and weight: fabulous portability, thing that other models difficulty can achieve, except perhaps for the Q. And at the end actually even those two guys are still at the side of CL and I guess some or many inside Leica too.
The Leica Q is really not a replacement for the CL, at least not in my eyes, even though perhaps it might have slightly better image quality and better high ISO it does not have the versatility nor the smaller footprint (with the Elmarit-TL 18mm) of the CL, further down the line there might be a smaller FF L-mount camera but probably not before 2024 and how much smaller? Will Leica allow it to challenge the M? I sincerely have my doubts… In the meanwhile people will be switching to the Ricoh GR iii, Sony, Fuji and now also the Canon EOS R7. IMHO Leica has simply made a very bad business decision.
Agree. Leica seems to be throwing balls out regarding L mount with the new alliances with panasonic etc; like waiting for them to solve the issue.
Yesterday evening Leica Store Miami had one of their camera talks on YouTube. The subject was “A New Look at Old Favorites”, a talk about the previous generation of Leica cameras (M10, SL, Q and S007). They also addressed the CL because they are/were getting a lot of questions. For those interested, it starts around 1:03:09 and goes on for more than 9 minutes.
Link to the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAZkH3rhv7E
They talk a lot, but “no official statement” is all they say about CL
They always talk a lot… 2 things stood out to me 1) I believe they made it quite clear that from a legal point of view they cannot say that the Leica CL has been discontinued as long as Leica has not made an official communication. Leica Store Miami actually had the CL listed as Discontinued, later they changed that (had to change that?) to Out of Stock. 2) They believe that there was a market for a CL2 and I believe that as well. I am not saying that the CL was a best seller but I do believe it had a following large and loyal enough to justify a CL2.
I guess Canon found out Leica was leaving a void in the APS-C market so they just announced a new Aps-c system with the R10 camera. i hope Leica smells the coffee and gets a new competent product manager.
Officially flush the S and bring out a new CL camera which would restore more confidence in your new products outside the M.
I am so glad that I did not invest in the CL due to limited lens choices on release.
30 years ago car spy photographers like Hans Lehmann revolutionized what consumers knew about impending new models. It didn’t take long for car companies to see that “sneak peek” photography was a great marketing tool. It kept up the excitement around the brand and kept this owners who were contemplating jumping ship to another brand to hang on and see what the new model would be like.
Leica could easily do the same with whatever follows the CL. You can plant stories, you can do interviews with company management and you leave anonymous photos of prototypes with Leica Rumors. You can even explain why you are going to focus on FF and what it means to CL and TL lens owners. It’s not rocket science, it Leica appears not to even understand the basics of what is common practice across multiple industries.
I just looked and I see at least 8 products on the current website. If the 2 APS products are discontinued there is the possibility of Leica replacing them with something new.Traditionally camera companies have never been obligated to give out details of new products before they are tested and ready for release. While I understand, as a Leica user, that we all might worry about discontinuation of our favorite models, I don’t feel that just because I’m a customer Leica AG should confide the details of their business strategy or future products with me personally. I think consumers have become rather spoiled these days.Feel free to disagree! A good example being all the people who complain at Apple every time the new iProduct doesn’t have just the exact set of features they want.
Sure, as John said, we don’t know what’s coming. Prior to the release of the TL, CL, S, Q, SL we didn’t know those were coming either.I don’t see a need to panic. The time to panic is when, rather than the camera bodies, the SD cards get discontinued. Now that would be a problem since almost all the cameras we are currently using require them.
Hi Stephen, since 2009 Leica has launched the S, X, T, Q, SL and CL product lines, 3 of those product lines are gone now, one is almost gone, the SL is quite frankly not doing as well as expected and the Q is a success story. It is what it is. Leica is certainly able to launch promising, innovative and fun cameras but it seems to struggle to keep up with investment and innovation after the initial release, unless that initial release is a surprise hit like the Q. I love the CL/TL2 systems and I ignored all the warning signs because of that, but I will not do that again… Personally I will think twice in the future before I invest in anything other than the M, and quite possibly I might even not invest in the M anymore because of the insane and yearly 6-7% price increases… I have Canon RF gear as well, it is more versatile than Leica, it is every bit as good, and I am pretty sure it will still be relevant 10 years from now, it gives me the longevity I expected to get from Leica but unfortunately in my opinion did not get…
I guess the CL ot TL are victims of programmed obsolescence. Buying a TL2 or a CL may not be a good option because in less than 6 years’time Leica will no longer service the cameras. Leica has a queer if not terribly awful customer service. I sold my M8 and lenses because of bad astygmatism but also as the sensor was also a bit worn out and could not be replaced at the time it went wrong. A few months ago I sent my X2 for servicing to have it returned 3 months later. Leica told me they do not longer serviced the camera. they offered me D lux7 as a replacement, charging 800 euros. I don’t think I’ll invest in a SL or Q as I am getting cautious about Leica customer service. When I think I had my Contax 139 and a nice bunch of zeiss lenses (35mm, 50mm, 85mm, 100mm & 135mm) along my Leica analog CL and never had a problem with them for more than 20 years I really do wonder where Leicas are going in the digital age.
Unfortunately most products are programmed obsolescence these days, they are simply not built for long term use like they used to be. This is why it probably isn’t worth buying the top of the range computer system since in far less than six years it will already be out of date or nearly so, even with software updates, at the speed things are moving.
I bought Bang & Olufsen stereo equipment at one point but when i needed servicing 20 years later B&O wouldn’t repair the equipment. I pointed to the most expensive expensive pair of speakers in the showroom and asked why I would think of purchasing them if they weren’t going to service them in the future. They didn’t have a good answer and I stopped buying products from that company.
In terms of lifespan Leica still does better than many competing products but at a higher cost. I do think at the prices we pay for Leica products they had better have very good service indeed if they want to keep us as customers.
A 2 – 3 year guarantee/warranty doesn’t really cut it to be honest.
A small company with limited resources… you don’t need a lot of people to communicate with your customers, it is clear from these and other pages that people are worried about the future of the S and even the SL. If Leica is smart it gets ahead of the narrative by communicating with its customers and by providing some kind of roadmap (or a way forward) that reassures them. What is the alternative? A company with 2 products? A $6K fixed lens “entry level” camera and a $9K luxury product of which the price gets raised with 6-7% each year…
It’s significant that this “reaction” note was not intended for press or public consumption. It was an internal document (assuming it was genuine) and Leica has still not fessed up. Presumably they will wait until the last camera and Ken’s has been told before acknowledging that the range is dead. There is a good argument for saying they have a duty to warn every intending buyer because only a small number of them read Leica Rumors or Macfilos. We are forewarned and forearmed.
I bought a Sony A7s recently knowing that the production of the camera had been halted, Sony clearly communicated that to the world long before supplies were gone, and that is the way it should be, open and transparent communication… When Canon released the 1D X Mark III in 2020 they were very open about the fact that it is their last flagship DSLR, they realize that not being transparent with your customers is going to hurt you in the long run… It is very unfortunate that Leica does not have a similar culture, they could have done the same for the S… About the CL, let’s be very honest here, the CL was not discontinued in 2022, Leica made that decision 5 years ago already by stopping all further investments in the product line, they decided to hide that from the outside world and lie about it, and now they have a self-inflicted communication headache…
Question, which I have to ask, as a Q owner other than megapixel what is next in the line, or is this dead as a dodo, cause other than new fixed lens I don’t know what’s next? I have no reason to go Sl route and now w the 11 I think M is at its optimum! I don’t think Leica does an excellent job with resources since they never bothered to fix wandering center focus on CL or T series. I love my Q and as much as I would love even more a Q2MONO, I got rid of my d850 cause I not any type of photog that needs, that much resolution.
Ha! You’re right they didn’t fix that wandering center focus. I still think the range of cameras they produce is pretty good for a tiny company. Your Q is one of them. Is a QL possible? Maybe.
“Small company with far fewer resources”. True. Yet they do an excellent job with those resources
and I, along with many others here, still choose their products over Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony.
I’ll continue using the TL 11-23mm on my S1R … Writing was on the wall for months ref Leica not continuing APS-C … If the sales were not there then better to channel precious resources into FF … Leica is a small company with limited resources … far fewer resources than Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sony … Leica’s survival requires profitable products.
Kind of interesting that thephoblographer website ran an article on great lenses for the CL a couple of days ago. I guess they do not follow Leicarumours or they realize that Leica is not creating more options.
I think the full frame emphasis comment in their discreet release is a subtle hint that the dead S system is really dead.
For the Leica CL… film
Anyhow CL’s death, long live CL
Hi Brian
I don’t think the S system is dead
best
Jono
Hi Jono, we were told the same thing about the CL, even as recent as last year, unfortunately it was all suit and tie talk without any substance, if no new lenses are being released and if there is no roadmap words like these truly mean very little… I can see a new mirrorless medium form system (with a new lens mount) being possible, but if the declining camera market drags on I can also easily see that project getting canceled before anybody even finds out about it…
Would love to see real numbers of survivors, I say Q leads the pack!
Disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. I might well have bought my last new Leica camera.
I think it’s very sad, I suspect (but I don’t know) that they thought (and were told) that they needed IBIS, Weathersealing and a better EVF, which meant a much larger body . . . and pretty much starting from scratch.
You make decisions that lead you down paths you may later regret. OIS vs IBIS vs Nothing but Compact Light bodies and lenses.
Once you choose your path it’s hard to add those technologies in without significant penalties in terms of size, weight, bigger batteries, heat dissipation and complexity of software. You only have to look at the sumo-sized SL line to see where it can take you.
Ironically the M series which eschews a lot of that complexity is the line that seems to do best of all.
Maybe Leica should look at Morgan as a role model.
Hi Jono, I think they are having to sober up in the rapidly shrinking camera market and realize that they must focus their limited resources on core products. Even the SL family of glass has been neglected by Leica and the system is only surviving due to Panasonic and Sigma filling out the camera and lens options to make it a comprehensive system. Anyway, I am delighted with my full frame M and L mount options.
I think you might be right, but being optimistic this might not be a sad thing. Leica perhaps, are wanting to develop an improved, full frame compact Leica. They might come up with something really good that’s a little larger not much larger. Well, who knows?
Does this shift mean the entry level vlux and dlux out?
HI John
I don’t think so – although they haven’t been refreshed for a while – I guess this depends on what Panasonic do with it.
Best
Jono
No I don’t think so. These cameras are simply rebadged Panasonics and they can sell them as long as they make a profit. It was different with the CL because it was manufactured in Europe.
Should we say bye CL or goodbye Leica
Why would you say goodbye to Leica? They are still making some of the best cameras ever and have a strong line up. For those that love the APS-C format, the CL, or both. Buy one now while they are still available and be happy you got one.
What you recommend, a 8000 $ M11? With or without evf? Or a 6000$ Q2
it has Macro! Perhaps time now to sell my CL
The referenced document is poorly worded and in many ways representative for the amateuristic way that Leica APS-C cameras have been managed and marketed… or rather not have been managed and marketed… From a support point of view it unfortunately raises more questions than it answers… For me as a CL and TL2 owner, both bought at the time of release in 2017, it is completely unclear which support I can still expect from Leica… This once more reflects very badly on Leica, longevity is one of the main reasons why people buy Leica cameras, it seems Leica has become a company more interested in selling its brand name than in selling photographic equipment…
I don’t think cameras are “let down” by lack of development. The CL will always be a good, capable camera and has been for many.It is quite capable as is. But the burning questions now, and one that Leica often drops on potential customers, are – 1) do you buy a CL while stocks last or 2) pray that they develop and release a full frame CL and wait, or 3) feel totally lost between the two possibilities and not buy anything? What I would like to hear is Leica clarifying which direction they are going in as far as a compact Leica goes, otherwise I’m stuck on option 3. Option 4) of course is to buy another brand if you need something compact and an SL series for other stuff. Yes I know, Leica wants everybody to buy an M11. but many of those ‘everybodys’ want an EVF AND be able to change lenses with a compact size. Leica surely knows this but has long been shy of producing anything more popular than the M ( as they were with the first CL ) and so it continues.What does everyone else think?
I am definitely in favour of option 4.
Hi Stephen, I plan on looking for alternatives and those alternatives will almost certainly be non-Leica, I personally no longer believe in the future of the SL, nor do I believe that Leica is willing to produce a M-sized L-mount camera, you might get an S5-sized one though… As a CL/TL2, S, M and SL owner it has become crystal clear to me over the recent years that Leica deep down only cares about the M… If you are not in the market for an M I personally would look elsewhere…
I am in favour of an additional option- sell now before value plummets. I cannot see strong interest in a limited system that is electronic based that has support ending.
The M11 and M10 and M240 have all had EVFs.
Compact size… the M lenses are generally smaller and certainly faster than the lenses on my TLs, and the M10 and M11 bodies are about the same size as the TLs. I sold my TLs a few months ago and got and M10-D and an M60. I did not need a compact sensor system (though I really like the Olympus cameras for wildlife) as I have an iPhone 13.
Sorry but I hate holding an iPhone to take photos, the shape is all wrong, the screen is terrible in bright light, tappy controls on screen often in the wrong place ( they move around ) and the exposure is way out compared to my cameras.Missed a ton of good shots when I tried to use my iPhone. Particularly bad when exposing for sunsets. Good for selfies and note taking. iPhone regardless of the model number, remains just a phone with a camera function to me.Each to their own as they say.
Agree about Olympus. Olympus is my backup system when I really want to go small and light, pretty good optics actually. They had IS, weather sealing and lots of these modern essentials long before the other brands.Have used mine for taking photos of birds in the rain at windswept locations. Great results.
I have two M’s and they are beautifully made and perform well. The weakness is that the optical viewfinders will and do go out of alignment when you travel with them, but I still use them anyway. The best Leica in my opinion at the moment is the SL2 / SL2s I finally bought one last year, and it can do it all. It’s not too heavy in practice ( I hike with mine in a LowePro ) but it sure isn’t the lightest or compact at all. Lovely with M lenses though and performance and versatility is wonderful.Has been 100% reliable so far. Best of all? That viewfinder. Leica should make two Ms in the future – one with the rangefinder and one with a built in EVF and let people choose. But they will keep updating all the functions on the camera with the latest tech and keep dancing around that good old rangefinder which is actually the very thing they should update!
If I read this correctly, Leica are going to be exclusively full frame.
So does this also mean the end for the medium format S system?
This also says support will only be for 6 more years. I thought under European consumer law support had to last 10 years?
All the best, Mark
Mark, you will find the support issue has been discussed this week in the comments section of the earlier article. I don’t know what future there is for the S series, although some recent rumours point towards a new model. Frankly, though, the S is off the radar for most users (and readers) and it didn’t even cross my mind this morning when I wrote the article. Mike
Hi Mark, not sure whether you are an S shooter or not but from a commercial point of view the Leica S system has been dead for years now, people supposedly in the know have said that less than 1,000 bodies were produced of the S3… There have been rumors of a new mirrorless medium format camera (with a new mount) but there have been rumors of a CL2 as well, it does not guarantee anything… I have the S2-P and the S007, KEH is willing to give me $500 for the S2-P, as the battery alone costs $200 not really worthwhile I believe… I am surprised as well that Leica spells out Full frame and does not use a more general term like high end (or similar), probably not a good sign for the Leica S…