If you are new to the world of Leica, knowing where to buy and where to sell — even when to sell — can save a lot of heartache and a stack of cash. Getting the best deal is something that experienced Leica owners are pretty good at. In this article, we will look at some general best-practice when buying and, especially, when selling your gear. It’s written from a UK perspective, but I have no doubt that the same principles will apply in most markets.
On first sight, buying a Leica might look like an expensive proposition, particularly if you think only in terms of capital expenditure. But there is a different way to look at the cost of a Leica: What it will cost you over the whole life of ownership, not just the rather frightening purchase price?
There’s actually nothing magical about it, but with care you can enjoy your hobby at the lowest possible cost
The first part of the article is about buying smart, so that the cost of the whole-life ownership can be considered a good deal, not just buying at the cheapest price (especially with second-hand equipment).
The second part of this article is about selling your beloved Leica wisely, and the right time to fund your next Leica or a new hobby, and how best to get the greatest residual value from that sale.
There’s actually nothing magical about it, but I hope I can give you some tips which will help you indulge your expensive hobby at the lowest cost. Seasoned Leica hands will know all about this already, but a refresh can sometimes work wonders.
Part 1: Buying and owning a Leica
The first thing to consider is that the world of Leica is unlike almost any other photography brand. Leicas are special, and tend to be handled almost entirely by specialised dealers. The name counts for a lot, and it is a fact that (in percentage terms) Leica cameras and lenses are relatively slow depreciators.
However, as you will be quick to point out, this is not so in absolute terms. You can lose less on a cheaper camera, even though it might depreciate more rapidly. But it’s perhaps not as much fun.
While some other makes have flashes of low depreciation, for instance the current popularity of the Fujifilm X100VI, Leica equipment occupies a very robust and selective world. You can make big mistakes, but if you take the right advice you will not lose out.
Your new Leica
New Leica cameras and lenses are certainly not cheap. The M11-P costs £8,000 here in the UK, the Q3 28 is £5,400 while the SL3 will set you back just under £6,000. Add a Leica lens or two, and you are soon over the £10,000 mark in capital expenditure.
Almost all new Leicas are sold by the franchised dealer network, and discounts are more or less non-existent. You might benefit from buying abroad, juggling tax for instance, but take care over warranties and after-sales service.
Occasionally, when a model range is being run down before the arrival of a replacement, there are some modest discounts to be had. But, in general, expect to pay the full price from a franchised dealer. This may seem harsh if you have been used to other makes of camera, where you need to search around for the best deal and would seldom expect to pay the full manufacturers’ recommended price. But not with Leica.
Always register a new Leica on the Leica owner’s website. In some cases, this entitles you to an extension of the standard warranty (in the UK) of two years to three years. Apart from this, registration is a safeguard in case your camera is stolen. The serial number is registered to you, and Leica will not allow re-registration by third parties without your permission. Incidentally, don’t forget to deregister your equipment when you sell it. Otherwise, the new owner cannot add it to his database.
Reassurance of provenance
Before you buy a new camera, therefore, make sure it comes from a franchised dealer. As a new camera, it will have a full manufacturers’ warranty, which can be passed on to a second buyer if you sell early. All this is crucial in establishing provenance.
Enter the figure in your little ledger and enjoy your photographic hobby
We’ve established that you will probably have to pay top dollar for your Leica M11, SL3 or Q3 43. Some might get a discount (but not the editor of Macfilos…) and some may own companies and be in a position to recover the tax (I am thinking here about the value added tax system in the European Union and the United Kingdom). But the rest of us grin and bear it. Enter the figure in your little ledger and enjoy your photographic hobby.
Most of this advice also applies to lenses, of course. They should also be registered to the legal owner on the Leica database. The same rules apply, but you can expect lower depreciation than with a camera body.
What to avoid
Occasionally, you will be tempted by “new” or “almost new” cameras from non-franchised dealers or on internet sites. However, tread warily because good provenance is critical when you come to sell your new toy.
I once got caught when buying an “almost new” Leica M9 from a non-franchised dealer. I was assured that the camera had been a demonstrator at Leica’s HQ, the Mayfair store. However, when I visited Leica two months later for a sensor clean, I was told that the camera warranty had only two months to run.
The M9 had never been registered as sold, had been nowhere near Leica Mayfair, had been delivered to a Leica dealer in Northern Europe. As a result, the warranty was deemed to have started on the day it left the factory, which was almost two years before.
I’ve learned a few lessons since then, but in this instance, I was forced to accept a dealer warranty after complaining.
Film certainty
Leica film cameras — of any age — can be an excellent investment. New models, such as the MP and the M-A are in short supply (not enough skilled technicians to make them), so older variants are in demand. They can fetch almost as much as one of the new models.
After all, a film camera is a mechanical device which can be repaired relatively easily. You need to find a specialist, of course. Provided the shutter mechanism and speeds are working well, there’s not much to go wrong. Cameras with auto exposure are slightly more prone to eventual problems, but this does not apply to the current M-A and all Ms up to the M4, which were purely mechanical.
Buying and selling older film Leicas is something most enthusiasts graduate to after they have purchased a new Leica and had some experience. The Siren call of screw-mount models from before and after the Second World War is never far from the ear of a true enthusiast. And the procession of M cameras and lenses — M3, M2, M4, M5, M6, M6TTL, MP, M7 — offers tantalising opportunities and years of potential pleasure.
While there isn’t space here to discuss older film Leicas in detail, my advice is to buy from an established Leica dealer. Most franchised dealers offer older cameras for sale. And specialists such as Peter Loy feature a treasure trove of delights on their websites. But do ensure that the camera has had a CLA (clean, lubricate, adjust) service before you buy. Or, if it doesn’t negotiate a lower price. Through lack of use, speeds can go awry and may need adjusting, and the mechanisms can gum up if not exercised regularly. But, in general, almost anything is repairable.
Digital uncertainty
Digital Leicas are another matter, of course, and buyers should approach the market with some care. Any camera which relies on electronics is prone to obsolescence. Lack of parts, sensors in particular, can render a camera obsolete. This is happening with the first Leica full-frame digital, the M9, where the sensor corrosion problem has created a two-tier market — those with a Leica-replaced sensor and documentation are still worth buying.
Other M9s, without this warranty, are problematic and should probably be avoided. The older M8, with its APS-H cropped sensor, is still popular among true enthusiasts, but it is almost unsaleable because the screen is prone to staining and no replacements are available. And it goes without saying that M8 sensors are rarer than hens’ teeth.
Yet, there is still demand for “classic” digital Leicas such as the Digilux 2 from 2004. Overall, though, this is a specialised market and needs careful study. Many true fans buy a second camera, so parts can be cannibalised to repair the No.1 favourite.
Leica or Leitz lenses
Leica (or earlier Leitz) M lenses hold their value extremely well because they are wholly mechanical, with no electronics to become out of date or irreplaceable.
Looked after, a current Leica M lens will still be around in the next century, just as screw-mount (Leica Thread Mount) lenses from the early 1930s are still being traded and are eminently usable. Adapters to convert LTM lenses to fit the M-Mount are readily available, although you will need different versions for various focal lengths to ensure that they bring up the relevant frame lines.
The overall result is that Leica M lenses depreciate slowly and, in many instances, can actually appreciate in value. With a long-running model, such as the 50mm Noctilux f/0.95, second-hand prices rise in tandem with new prices. So, if you bought an early model, you might sell it for more than you initially paid. In most cases, such as with the ubiquitous 35mm Summicrons and Summiluxes, there have been various models over the years, and some research is essential so you know what you are buying.
Some older M lenses, of course, have achieved collector status and have appreciated beyond wildest dreams. Recently, Leica has been re-manufacturing modern versions of classics, such as the 35mm “Steel Rim” Summilux because the original is beyond the pocket of most enthusiasts. A nice, shiny new model at a competitive price is therefore something worth investing in. The new “steel rim” has the same feel as the original and produces similar classic results, although you benefit from new construction and improved coatings.
Autofocus lenses are a different matter. Currently, Leica SL lenses are holding their value well. But, unlike M lenses which have a potential century of useful life, these newer autofocus devices rely on electronics for focus, aperture adjustment and stabilising functions if fitted.
In time, these electronic parts could become obsolete (the dreaded digital rot) and there is no guarantee that lenses will still be functioning after ten years, let alone centuries. Long-term, it is clear that electronic lenses will not retain their value in the same way as M lenses.
Cost of ownership, not cost of purchase
…or how to stay sane
Undoubtedly, dabbling in Leicas is an expensive hobby. But do you actually know how much your photography pastime costs in a typical year?
One of the big mistakes many owners make is in mentally counting capital expenditure as an expense in their head. It isn’t an expense, even though it might represent a cash-flow embarrassment.
If you are not organised, and think only in capital terms, you can frighten yourself to death by regarding the purchase price as the actual cost of my gear. Instead, apply proven accountancy rules to keep track of the real cost.
Concentrate, therefore, on the whole life cost — buying cost less selling cost. That makes the sums look more attractive, especially for Leica owners who benefit from lowish relative depreciation. I recommend adopting simple accounting rules. Treat your cameras and equipment as hobby assets and depreciate them regularly.
Keeping records and spreading the cost
Keep track of progress during your ownership of Leica cameras or lenses. Apply depreciation every month. Then, when an item is sold, the cost is adjusted to agree with the sale proceeds. Occasionally, very occasionally, there’s a profit. This happens on some Leica lenses and older film cameras, where prices have risen during ownership.
If you are in the lucky position of being able to afford to maintain a current set of Leica cameras, plus a few others from different makes, it’s comforting to keep track of exactly what your costs are.
Furthermore, if you work out the sums, you can enjoy the use of your heart’s desire and still pat yourself on the back and say the cost has been reasonable.
It may come as a surprise that the total photography cost can be encouragingly low. A friend of mine, who has every new Leica and “teems and lades” frequently, tells me that it all boils down to £250 a month. That’s a lot of money, you might say. It is. But compare it with the cost of owning even a modest family car and it’s small beer.
Approached in the right way, concentrating on depreciation rather than capital cost, the actual monthly outlay can be swallowed without too much pain. This is comfort to the average photographer who, perhaps, worries about the expense of the hobby.
Being prepared: knowing when to sell
You must adhere to certain policies, or habits. Much as you love your Leicas, you shouldn’t get sentimental about them. A good principle is to buy and (most importantly) sell when the time is right. If you have the cash in the bank earning minimal interest, get the maximum return by selling on commission. It means you don’t get the money until the dealer sells the equipment, but you get the best return.
Furthermore, keep an eye on the market and the rumour sites. If you get wind of a new version, consider selling your old one immediately. In this way, you are on the right track to minimise depreciation.
What are your selling options?
This is a much more complex subject. When the time comes to say goodbye to your faithful servant, you want to get as much as you can for the camera or lens. This might involve passing it to a non-franchised dealer or auctioning it on a website. Or, in an ideal world, selling to a good friend who doesn’t mind paying over the odds. But from long experience, I do none of this. I use a Leica franchised dealer to sell my equipment for me.
The first thing to bear in mind is that a Leica dealer can ask for top second-hand prices because of its reputation and the provision of a limited dealer warranty on second-hand equipment. So, if you play your cards well, this means that you can also get a good price. And you have the confidence of dealing with a reputable outfit.
Even so, there are ways of maximising your return. There are three ways of selling your equipment through a Leica dealer.
1. Cash sale
This is something of a last resort, probably sensible only when you are cashing in your Leica chips and turning to a new hobby, such as basket weaving. If you are seriously in the business of being a Leica enthusiast, don’t do this. Or, perhaps, sell on eBay to get a little more. Below are some better bets.
2. Part-exchange
This is by far the most popular method of selling your Leica — trading it in for a new model. While it is not the most cash-efficient way of selling, it is popular because it involves reduced capital expenditure and all you have to load onto your credit card is the difference in cost between the new and old equipment. However, if you are not short of the readies, there is a better way…
3. Commission sale
Variously known as “sale or return” or “contract sale”, the commission sale involves leaving your camera or lens with a dealer who will sell it on your behalf. The dealer will pay you the full sale price less a commission percentage. You will have to pay for your new camera or lens in cash and then wait for the old model to sell.
Even then, most dealers will not pay you until one month after the sale has completed. This is a sensible precaution because they could have to accept a return, and it gets awkward. However, if you can afford to “bridge” the cost in this way, a commission sale (at a fair rate) is by far the most cash-efficient way of selling.
A working example
Let’s take a sample cost of a used M camera that will retail for £5,000 with dealer warranty.
The cash sale: 33%
Dealer offers on cash sale, part exchange and commission sale can vary significantly, so you should ensure you have full chapter and verse and understand the costs. While I am unable to give a table of costs for all dealers, I have asked one Leica franchised dealer, Ivor Cooper of Red Dot Cameras in London, for an outline of his buying-in terms. It turns out to be a very straightforward and transparent system which gives sellers a great deal of comfort.
If you ask Red Dot to buy your equipment, they will know how much they can resell it for and will make an offer on condition and likely desirability. There has to be a profit element, of course.
All this mounts up, even before you consider the advantage of having real people to talk to
The dealer is responsible for marketing, insuring the item while on the premises, paying VAT on the profit element, offering a limited warranty, and covering credit card fees. All this mounts up, even before you consider the advantage of having real people to talk to. And, considering the cash-up-front deal, Red Dot will pay you one third less than they can get for the camera.
In this example, you will leave the shop with around £3,350 for a cash sale. It’s the most expensive way of selling, but perhaps the most convenient.
The part exchange: 25%
You buy a new Leica M11 for £7,700 and part exchange your old camera, which the dealer can sell for £5,000. In a part-exchange deal, you will receive 75% per cent of the retail price from Red Dot. So that’s £3,750, £400 more than the cash sale.
The commission sale: 15%
In this example, you take your old camera to Red Dot and agree a selling price. Ivor and his team will advise you, but if you think it is worth a little more, then it’s up to you to set a price. It might not sell quite as quickly, but there is always a chance, and you can reduce the price if it sticks.
The equipment will be marketed on the dealer’s website and, when it is sold, the proceeds will be transferred to your bank account one month after 1This is to allow for possible returns during 30 days after sale the sale date. If all goes well, you should receive £4,250. That’s £900 more than a cash sale and £750 more than a part-exchange.
Recommendation
As you can see, the commission sale option gets you the most return. Bear in mind that a franchised dealer can set a good resale price because of his reputation and willingness to offer a dealer warranty.
The 15 percent commission for a commission sale (at Red Dot) is very fair, and less than many dealers charge. I think this is an excellent way of selling if you can afford the interim outlay.
The alternative, selling via a website, could actually result in a lower return because of the competition and relative lack of assurance. And you will have to pay commission and PayPal fees, which could easily exceed the 15% commission charged by a dealer such as Red Dot.
Conclusion
As you can see, there’s a benefit to understanding both sides of the equation: the cost of ownership, plus residual value realised when you sell. When you consider the total picture, a Leica can actually look like a reasonable purchase, if you know where to buy and where to sell.
If you can afford to wait a month or two for your money, the commission sale is by far the best
Buying and selling through franchised Leica dealers is my strong recommendation for regular traders in modern Leica cameras. If you are buying new, you are almost certainly using a franchised dealer, and this ties you in to one of the three deals above. If you can afford to wait a month or two for your money, the commission sale is by far the best.
…and rest happy
Everyone knows the epitaph on the keen photographer’s gravestone: “Don’t let my wife sell my cameras for what I told her I paid for them.” But the old snapper would have rested easier in his grave had he known just how much his spouse got for his hard-won hobby equipment, and how little the real overall expenditure had been. It’s all a question of depreciation, my dear.
What’s your view on the best way to buy and sell a Leica? It’s a hot topic, so comments welcome
Read about the author’s change of heart on the Leica SL3
Jonathan Slack reviews the Leica Q3 43 and takes his new camera on holiday to Crete
Mike reviews the Leica D-Lux 8
Highlights of the 45th Leitz Auction
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My own experiences:
I thought about selling my M240 through the local Leica dealer. They were clear about their policy: they’d look at the going rate for a camera in comparable condition, then offer 70%. That wasn’t very attractive to me.
I’ve bought used Digilux 2, M8 and M240 on the auction site ebay. One has to be careful, but all my purchases have been more than good.
Most recently, I’ve bought used equipment from the Japanese online store Map Camera, and the American store Adorama. Each offers either free 30 day returns, or returns minus a small percentage. I’ve used both, with no problems.
As one example, I just bought a Fujifilm XT5, described as ‘thoroughly used’. What I received had supeficial scratches on the bottom plate; the remainder of the body looks new, and the dials,buttons, and other controls work perfectly.
It’s in accord with other experiences.described here: find a trustworthy dealer; stay with them.
Hi Mike, a very good article and yes I’ve found selling on commission the best way too.. unfortunately I had to chase for money after selling it on the commission basis through a certain gentleman. You might have heard the name. There have been court cases against him, luckily I got my money back for a few sells I did through him.
I wonder why do you say “You might benefit from buying abroad, juggling tax for instance, but take care over warranties and after-sales service.”
If bought from a Leica dealer abroad , shouldn’t their international warranty work and therefore one should be able to just walk in their shop in London and get anything resolved/sent to Germany?
Mahesh, We may be talking about the same gentleman! I have had similar experiences to you in the past with one or two dealers: “Your sale just missed the July cheque run, we’ll do it next month…” Another dealer, which I have used in the past for non-Leica sales, never reports on progress. Eventually, I would go in, and a cheque would appear, always reluctantly. It’s one of the reasons I use Red Dot for Leica gear, since I can trust them and they are fair and transparent.
Leica USA just changed their rules on trade-in for purchases. Now they offer you an amount and then send that amount if agreed to your bank account. Then on the purchase they charge you full price, BUT on that full price they now charge sales tax on the full price instead of the full price minus the trade-in value. So if a full price is 9000 and the trade in is 6000, then BEFORE the recent change you would owe 3000 plus applicable taxes.
BUT NOW they charge you taxes on the 9000 which means it suddenly costs more to purchase from Leica on this basis.
That sounds super complicated and I really don’t understand. Every country has different tax rules and, as I said, the article is based on the situation in the UK. Perhaps we need to investigate what is happening and recommended on a large market such as the US.
Here in Switzerland the price for M10/11 and Q2 on Ricardo (swiss version of ebay limited to Switzerland) are on par with the Street price of the local Leica shop. Despite the fact that Leica gives you warranty and most of the time a CLA has been done
There is a common feeling that sites such as eBay are full of bargains, but this is not necessarily so. You still need to know what you are doing. When dealing with high-value items such as M digitals, you can’t be too careful. As I said in the article, I prefer the security of dealing with real people whom I know and trust. Mike
Please explain what “teams and ladles” refers to, for those of us unfamiliar with such phrases.
Ah, sorry, it’s a bookkeeping expression meaning “a practice whereby organisations attempt to hide a cash loss in one customer’s account by moving in money from another customer’s account”. However, I’ve used it in the more general sense of moving one thing to another, or, if you like, lots of buying and selling. It’s often used in the north of England, especially in Yorkshire, and is sometimes written as “teeming and ladling” with an L in the middle, as in “ladle soup from one bowl to the other”.
And thanks for mentioning this because it should be “teem and lade”. Somehow, it got changed to “team” in the editing process. (I have now corrected this)
Mike
My best highest return is fredmiranda.com
Thanks, Brian. Everyone will find good recommendations useful.