Our article on the Leica CL’s future, particularly the prospects for an upgraded CL2 model, has sparked a fascinating debate. Thanks to Macfilos readers, we now know a lot more about the CL’s place in owners’ hearts. Without a doubt, most readers are eager to see a CL2 and would be disappointed if Leica decided to discontinue its APS-C range. Even the neglected TL2 gets a fair bit of affection, as indeed it should.
This discussion comes at an interesting time for me. After a year of minimal opportunity for photography, I realised I hadn’t used my CL as much as I had hoped. So I decided to sell, taking advantage of a sudden interest in second-hand bodies and lenses. My future with Leica’s APS-C systems will hinge very much on whether or not we do get a CL2 and if I consider the improvements to be sufficiently worthwhile. In other words, if you like, is Leica committed to APS-C?
Regent Street Motor Show, with the CL and the 18-56 mm Vario-Elmar “kit” lens
In the meantime, pending firm news of a CL2, I still have a foot in the APS-C camp with the delightful TL2. In some ways, I prefer it to the CL, although the tall accessory viewfinder makes this camera far less compact. At least, though, that viewfinder tilts — an advantage for older photographers who may no longer have the agility to hunker down for a low-level shot.
Best I’ve owned…
As always, not everyone would agree with my logic. It is clear from the comments that most owners are delighted with the CL as it is. Improvements such as stabilisation would be a bonus but are not a dealbreaker. As Ferrum says, the CL is “certainly the best digital camera I have ever owned and maybe the best (camera) since the Nikon F Photomic days.”
Many cling to the CL because it is so compact, one of the smallest APS-C interchangeable-lens bodies on the market.
Take your Pick with the Leica CL (with 18-56mm Vario-Elmar)
Regular Macfilos reader Le Chef outlined his own journey to the CL: “I have always wanted a Leica from time immemorial. I looked at a Q and decided it was too restrictive. I looked at the SL and decided that owning a ‘tank’ along with heavy lenses was a retrograde step. I would look at an M, but these days think I’m too conditioned with autofocus to make it work. I looked at various Fujis and found the menus were too messy. Same with Sony. I liked the Olympus m43 cameras but never felt quite right. (Eventually) I borrowed a CL, and it seemed like a natural fit. I’ve now ‘married’ the lens system and enjoy using the ones I own.”
Loving it…
Peter Ewan is equally impressed: “I’m a new CL owner (less than a week) and absolutely love it. The images are stunning, the build quality is superb, and the size is perfect. Works brilliantly with my manual Nikon lenses.”
Leica CL and the versatility of M lenses — here the f/0.95 Noctilux
Justin Crawford is captivated by the compact profile of the CL but also by its ease of use: “Small and light are hallmarks of the CL, both body and lenses, allowing a generous collection of the latter, and their camera, to be stowed in a remarkably small bag. This is an excellent system by any standards, but stands apart from other APS-C cameras for having such a clean and unfussy button/dial interface and for its simple and clear menu system, unlike most other offerings.”
David A, who is a leading member of the British Leica scene and a very experienced photographer, is more bullish than most:
“I think if Leica has plans for a CL2, it has probably put them on hold while it bolsters sales of the SL2. Just consider the webinars and recent marketing effort to boost sales for ‘big brother’. It was against this background that I wrote an article for my website.
“Its primary purpose was to help new owners of a Leica CL get the very best from the cameras. Judging by the interest aroused from my modest effort, it has even rekindled interest from existing owners. My conclusion is that interest in the CL or TL is not waning. Furthermore, there is an unsatisfied appetite for a successor model. I hope that my assumption, above, is nearer the mark.”
Portraits with the CL and the outstanding 55-135 mm zoom 
Giles Hooper touches on the range of lenses now available and which are making the CL more attractive: “I love my CL, both in size and (especially) picture quality. The 35 mm Summilux is among the best lenses I’ve ever used… and the L-mount alliance is giving us new options. M adapters open yet another huge world. But there’s some left-field stuff, too, like the new TTArtisans APS-C 50 mm f/1.2. Less than $100 (!), manual focus, native L-mount, and surprisingly great image quality.”
Doubts
However dearly readers love the CL, the lack of development (especially on the lens front) is a constant worry and undermines confidence in the system.
As William Self says, “I too have the gut feeling that Leica does not have enough love for the TL/CL in order for them to continue development. I’m actually wondering if I should sell my CL setup now while I can still command a few bucks for it, or simply wait and see if Leica really does have a follow-up on the way.”
Another regular commenter, SlowDriver, sums up the concern: “I believe initially Leica was pretty serious about APS-C but in my opinion, that changed when the Q became such a big success. The Q became the entry-level camera into the Leica eco-system, and APS-C became of less strategic importance to Leica.
“They flushed out what was already in the pipeline and since then nothing anymore… no new lenses or bodies since 2017… The writing is on the wall, I am afraid, I probably still expect a CL2, but my guess would be that it stops there. The next step (2-3 years from now at the earliest) would then be a compact FF rangefinder-style camera similar to what Sony did with the A7c. You would still be able to use TL-lenses but with less MP.”
White smoke
But there is some hope. Le Chef again: “I think the CL/TL faithful just need a sign from Wetzlar – in the form of white smoke – an upgrade to firmware to fix the focus point problem, or a perspective control as the Q2 received recently would be good enough for people to know they shouldn’t panic-sell their equipment.”
The Leica TL2 with arguably the best TL lens, the wonderful 35mm Summilux
Despite these misgivings, there is an enormous appetite for a new, upgraded CL. Our regular author, Jonathan Slack, is also bullish: “I think the number of replies to this article says it all really. I’m sure the interest is there for a CL2, especially now that so many L lenses are available (and some of the Sigma ones are reasonably small). I know I would buy one. Of course, it would depend on what it had.”
Jonathan and I have agreed to differ on this one.
Wishlist
There is a clearly defined list of improvements that current owners would like to see when a successor to the CL is announced:
- IBIS: Since none of the TL lenses is stabilised, in-body stabilisation is high on the wish list. Some would even tolerate a slightly heftier body in return for stabilisation, though the hope is that it could be done without changes. However, one valid concern is that Leica’s stabilisation systems in full-frame cameras are based on Panasonic technology and such a ready-made solution for APS-C may not exist, certainly not at Panasonic.
- Improved EVF: This is almost a foregone conclusion. It would be commercial suicide to produce a new design after five years without slotting in a modern viewfinder.
- New sensor: This, again, is something we expect. Technology has moved on in the past five years and it would be illogical to launch a new model with the existing sensor.
- Bigger battery: Several readers request a larger battery, ideally the one used in the Q2 and the SL, although I cannot see how that could happen without a much larger body. However, a push-and-click battery similar to that on the full-frame cameras and the original T is a possibility.
- Weather sealing: This is something that many would like to see, although it has to be acknowledged that the existing lens line-up does not feature dust or splash protection.
- Improved autofocus: Requested by many respondents and it is another area where we can be fairly certain something will be done. As Andy says, “I would appreciate above all a more reliable and precise focusing system arriving with the CL2 at least akin to the SL2/SL2-S. I am not speaking of a focusing system for action photography as this will be a long way away. But a system that focuses more precisely or accurately when there is fine detail, low contrast or low light. I actually think a CL2 with the same focusing system as the CL would be a deal-breaker for me.”
- Adjustable screen: This could bring the convenience of the TL’s flip EVF and is a popular request. However, Leica has made a point of principle in not offering tilting screens, so it’s unlikely a CL2 would break ranks.
The final wish is the elephant in the room and one that has caused more controversy than most. It deserves a section to itself. The strength of feeling is palpable and, given that implementation is a matter of software, most readers cannot understand why it has not been done years ago.
This particular elephant is the lack of a fixable centre focus point in the CL’s menu.
Centre focus option
Ever since the introduction of the X Vario in 2013, Leica has defied popular demands for a menu option that would allow a fixed central focus point, thus facilitating the traditional focus-and-recompose technique. The result is that it is near impossible to keep the focus point centralised when the ball of the thumb can easily brush across the four-way controller.
Leica appears to have set its corporate mind against focus-and-recompose. It’s particularly odd since this has been a corollary of rangefinder photography since the 1930s. Of all companies, we could could agrue, Leica should be the one to offer a fixed focus point on all its digital cameras. It is simple to implement and needs no hardware amendments.
Fuji, to mention just one competitor, introduced such a menu option to fix the position of the focus point in its flagship X-series cameras years ago.
Almost all the respondents to last week’s CL article put the implementation of a fixed focus point at the top of the list.
“FIX THE DAMNED WONDERING FOCUS POINT!”, says Le Chef: “It should be easy to have the focus point locked off as the default, and if you want it to move you have to instruct it to be able to do so.”
“The wandering focus point” is a great concern also to Brian Nicol. “The potential to lock the focus point would be terrific,” says Rudiger.
As I pointed out, this problem is not confined to the CL. John Shingleton, who has just returned from his 3,000-km road trip in Australia, has become increasingly frustrated by the floating focus point on his Q2. He finds it almost a deal-breaker and, of course, he is not alone.
Traffic jam at Piccadilly Circus with the TL2 and the versatile 18-56 mm Vario Elmar
All this makes Leica’s resistance to a fixed-focus point curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said. It’s so easy to implement that we have to assume it is against company policy.
I know from many discussions with Jonathan Slack that he is opposed to a fixed centre focus option. He believes focus-and-recompose is not necessary when we have more modern focus options to choose from. Perhaps he will elaborate on his views under this article.
However, as I understand it, it is Leica’s policy to avoid additional complications in the menu system. There are no plans to implement a software option to fix the focus point.
We have all tried to get around this problem in some way. Some find a thumb grip helpful in keeping the ball of the thumb away from the control pad. Others prefer a half-case. Neither is entirely satisfactory. But most of us are agreed that a menu option is an obvious solution. Even the ability to lock the four-way pad would do the trick.
I should mention in Leica’s defence that the first firmware update to the CL did introduce a lock function. Unfortunately, it locks everything, including the ability to change exposure settings, so it is of little practical use for most photographers.
Conclusion
The current CL is a well-loved camera, and almost all Macfilos readers would be devastated if Leica did indeed decide to exit the APS-C market. Equally, though, they recognise that without some new input in the form of a CL2 and, perhaps, some attention to the lens line-up, the system’s days are numbered.
Leica should take heart from the level of interest in an upgraded CL and the genuine hope that this lightweight ASP-C system will survive.
A fixed-focus point would be icing on the cake. Go on, Leica, get down off your high horse and give a little succour to the peasants. Add the centre option to the CL, the Q2 and the SL2, and we’ll be happy, even if some would never use it.
Here is the article that sparked this discussion
Previously on Macfilos
- Leica SL Taming the wayward focus point
- Locking the Leica focus point – no progress
- X Marks the Spot: Why can we not fix the Leica CL focus point
Continue the discussion here. What do you think about the call for a fixed-focus-point option on all Leica digitals? Let us have your vote below. Yes or No? If you are opposed to a fixed focus point, let’s have your reasons.
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Did you know that Macfilos is run by a dedicated team of volunteers? We rely on donations to help pay our running costs. And even the cost of a cup of coffee will do wonders for our energy levels.
The fate of the Leica CL and potential CL2 upgrade has sparked a lively debate among photography enthusiasts. While many readers are eager to see a new model, the author’s personal experience highlights the uncertainty surrounding Leica’s commitment to their APS-C range. Will Leica continue to support and innovate in this space, or will they discontinue it? The answer remains to be seen.
I am waiting & hoping for the CL2 as well. CL is a particularly pleasant camera for M focal points. 50 f 1.4 = 75 f 1.4 and 75 f2 = 105 f 2. one of the two and one 11-23 (16-35) then, at that point, you have an exceptionally compact system.
I’m STILL waiting for a new Leica model to replace this camera! Full frame and just a bit bigger with same features would be fine.
Interesting. B&H seems to be out of CL stock (bodies and bundles). Most of the time it says: “More on the Way” and “Expected availability: 2-4 months”. The bundles are actually gone for good. Leica Store Miami already does not list them anymore. Let’s see whether there are any bodies left, and if not, whether the status changes to No longer available or Discontinued. We might get the answers to our questions sooner rather than later…
I am waiting & hoping for the CL2 as well. The CL with 2 TL Zooms & a fast M mount lens are almost perfect for travel & causal hiking. It is the replacement of my stolen D-Lux 109 & also my first interchangeable lens Leica. It has been my daily camera to bring along & also my travel companion for the past 5 years. After seeing the leaked back image of a possible new Leica camera at Leica Rumors, I have a wild thought that the CL2 might transform into an APS-C L-mount Q2?! That will be a BIG upgrade for the CL2 & the more nostalgic look should make it more appealing as well. I hope the delay & lacked of development are partly caused by the supply chain/chip shortage issues. I am keeping my fingers crossed & still love my CL kit.
Yours Truly,
Patrick
Let’s keep this thread alive. Something new ? CL is such a nice camera for M lenses. 50 f 1.4 = 75 f 1.4 and 75 f2 = 105 f 2. one of the two and one 11-23 (16-35) then you have a very compact system. (I have both M and TL system) I can not understand that Leica does not spend more energy on it. I just bought the Canon R3 and 5 RF lenses. I do not think Leica can keep up with competition on the big professional system. It is SO good and you have to consider very carefully if you want to start on a new FF L Mount camera. SL is still too big for SL camera body. Just good advice. It is, of course, individual and my completely private position. But there are strong indications that SL is not selling so well. BUT Leica has a very special quality in small systems. Just see Leica M and Leica Q. So Leica – get started with the new CL2 now … 🙏🏻
I’m with Slowdriver. The good news is that Leica’s last a long time. Even if the CL is discontinued, the camera will likely continue to work and the lenses will continue to be excellent. The L-mount is not going anywhere. Those of us who enjoy the CL will enjoy it for years to come. Perhaps at some point Leica will stop support. But until then, my recommendation is drive down the cost of each image by using your CL extensively! Get all the great pictures you can and enjoy a wonderful camera.
Hi Rudiger, it is also not so easy to replace the CL. It is a very versatile camera despite its small footprint. I own an M but for me it is not a replacement for CL. Similar for the Q. The cameras that probably come closest are IMO the Fuji cameras and the Sony A7c. That being said, the A7c could also be a one-off for all we know, at present we also don’t know whether Sony will take the A7c concept any further. So it is not easy to replace, I am deeply invested in the system and I like it, hence I will stick with it at least for the next 1-3 years… after that who knows… hopefully by then the dust has settled and the path forward is clear…
Sadly I think Slowdriver has hit the nail on the head, just look at how many CL’s are being offered new at bargain rock bottom prices now on ebay.
I still sincerely hope that I am wrong though. Anyway, my CL is going anywhere the first 1-2 years. I took possession today of the Sigma 18-50mm f2.8. First impressions are positive. The biggest difference with the Leica lens is indeed as I believe you pointed out the color rendition. Other than that build quaility, auto focus, etc are all excellent. Compared to the other TL zooms it zooms in the opposite direction. Not a big thing for me. Perhaps the equivalent Leica lens might optically be slightly better (to be confirmed) but right now I don’t believe any small differences in image quality (if they exist) would justify the price difference, also given that the Sigma is faster and focuses closer.
…isn’t going anywhere…
Interesting stuff. Leica APS-C is not even mentioned anymore in this product survey…:
https://www.surveymonkey.de/r/leica2111?lang=en
Very interesting. I see this is posted on the forum, but it looks more like an official Leica survey. In view of the mention of the M9 and M10-D, it clearly isn’t limited to current production. So there is no logical reason to exclude the CL and TL2 unless the purpose of the survey is to cover only full-frame cameras. The future of the CL gets curiouser and curiouser…
FWIW, the medium format Leica S is mentioned as well. In any case I believe the message is pretty clear now. This is probably the “high end” product catalog that Leica has in mind and products like the CL and TL2 (and the Summarit line of M-lenses for that matter) are probably not high end enough anymore for Leica…
I don’t think it’s so much about “high” but about return on investment for a small and quite niche company. If lines don’t appeal to the market, Leica is not in a position to keep them going just to have a foot in that market. Maybe Sony can, maybe Fuji can, but Leica can’t. I write that as someone who owns and is happy with their TL2, TL lenses and even has a lovely little Summarit.
Hi Steve, Leica Store Miami started an online petition to bring back the Summarit line, I honestly am not buying the argument that they were not selling. Same for the CL. Leica just seems to have lost interest in APS-C and in general in products that cost less than $5-7K. They focus on the Q and the M, and desperately try to get the SL at the same sales level. I have the T, TL2, CL, 7 Leica lenses and a few Sigma lenses. If Leica kills APS-C I will not be buying any new Leica products anymore and my 5 other Leica bodies will over time also be looking for another home…
Or the M240 !
I don’t have a CL but I do have a D-Lux 7 which has just replaced my D-Lux 109. When I first started using the new camera the floating single focus point was driving me mental. I don’t know how many times I had to reset the central focussing point only for my nose to touch the touch screen at the rear while looked through the EVF and place the focusing point some other place which I then had to seek out. At least you can turn off the touchscreen. However that’s not the point. Why should have to disable a major function to enable a personal preference. Apologies if there is another way to resolve this issue
I don’t have a CL but I do have a D-Lux 7. Maybe I’m doing something wrong
Could not agree more… fix the focus point. I love the quality of Leica hardware. Their attentiveness to customer requests is a complete turnoff. Why is it so hard to listen and be a bit humble. Just add the menu item.
On another note, looking at the list of requests, it would appear the real ask is to create a smaller, lighter SL2. Or a more technologically advanced M system – after all, M lenses are superb on the CL. I think either way, the proposed CL2 threatens the two major systems (SL, M) and therefore is not a likely prospect. The good news is that after several using of using my CL, it still works great…. Except for that pesky focus point never being where I expect it. That has cost me a few missed shots, and that is not acceptable. My response…. Looking at the GRiiiX. Not interchangeable, but maybe more practical in real world use.
I get the impression that many Leica users discount the GR because it doesn’t look up to the job. It’s so plain and inoffensive. But I agree with you. For less than the cost of any TL lens you get a complete system that is superb.
The biggest differences between my two Panasonic and two Sigma L mount lenses as compared to my genuine Leica CL lenses as I see it is one of colour balance with the Pans and Sigma’s all producing slightly warmer colours than the Leica glass.
I am talking here of very very slight colour mismatches where the Leica lenses all produce VERY slightly cooler images than the others but where whichever lens used the actual straight out of camera image colours all remain perfectly acceptable.
It is thus a matter of taste and any very fine differences are in any case easily corrected or adjusted if shooting in DNG (which I do) simply by fine tuning such as the colour balance slider Lightroom or whatever post processing software you use..
That said, I do slightly prefer the cooler output of the Leica lenses to that of the Sigma’s or Panasonic’s hence it will more usually be the output from those lenses rather than Leica’s own which I most often feel any need to adjust during post processing.
All very minor points though, and of very little practical importance in real terms, rather more about which colour output such as I prefer with the Leica lenses being nearer in output to my beloved Kodachrome and the Pan & Sigma’s output leaning more towards Fujichrome.
In the US almost all the TL lenses are out of stock and “on back order” and have been for months now – the only one’s ;eft are a couple of silver ones and hardly anything on e-bay. I kept the TL2, the Visoflex, the CL and the 18-55 – and both are light and easy to carry and work like the great old XVario. I love using them. The TL2 is almost unobtainable, and the CL only in the package with the 18 – which is out of stock separately. Looks as if the run is over….
I sold the CL in what I imagined was preparation for the arrival of three CL2. But it was clearly a premature move. I did keep the TL2, the Visoflex and the 18-55, just like you. If I am honest, though, I more often than not prefer the Q2 as a convenient and superbly capable camera.
Mike I absolutely love my Pan 20-60 lens, likewise my Pan 24-105 and Sigma 105mm f2.8 macro not forgetting also my Sigma 100-400 L mount ‘C’ lens, in short am tempted to say my lens World is compleat, but then ahgain I do fancy……
I know this is an impossible question, but we hear a lot about how good the Leica TL lenses are. Like you, I like the Lumix 20-60 and I’ve often wondered how it would stack up against the 18-56 TL, for instance. Sometimes the name Leica carries more weight than the fact, so how would you compare those two lenses? They are both relatively slow and have different focal length ranges. But I much prefer the range from 20 to 60 which is ideal for general photography.
I have used my Leica APSC lenses on my full frame SL and the results have been surprisingly good, but for me at least not good enough, and I have only done so merely out of interest as a exercise or experiment. Maybe I would have been more happy had I been using a higher mp SL2 or Pan S1R but then again even I had the use of or owned either of those I know I would still have reasoned to myself- Why buy something with so many pixels and then throw so many away? No other than for a bit of fun as a experiment using such as CL lenses on a full frame camera remains a No No for me.
Exactly right, Don. And I suspect the Lumix 20-60 is a better choice in and case. Not to mention some of the lighter FF primes that are now available.
Now that the TL2 appears to be gone (as mentioned elsewhere on this site) and updates to the CL appear less likely, I wonder what will happens to the TL lenses? A quiet phasing out? I do notice a trend, though, of people suggesting pairing a TL lens (e.g. the 35mm Summilux) with the 47mp SL2 as a smaller, lighter, walkabout lens.
Some of the sites suggesting this have an obvious connection to online stores (Red Dot Forum for instance) and others not so much (TvO). I can see the pros and cons of this but genuinely wonder how many people are buying full frame L mount cameras and then purchasing new crop sensor lenses for them.
Which brings me back to my question and I guess the answer is existing stock will be sold and simply not replenished while potential APS-C customers are gently guided in the direction of the Q2.
Yes, we are told that crop lenses perform very well on full-frame cameras, especially those with 40-plus megapixels under the hood. But I’m not sure how many users are really comfortable with the compromise. Is it not better to go for a Fuji or Sony APS-C camera?
Good as they are, the TL lenses have been moribund for some six years, if not longer, and I cannot see them continuing in production if Leica decides not to produce a CL2. A decision has to be made: Go for it with a new CL and, perhaps, some new lenses. Or get out out…
With Sigma increasingly investing in bringing out ever more APSC image sensor size L mount lenses my guess or view is Leica probably have moved on and away from the CL and its sensor size and maybe we should be looking instead in Sigma’s direction for such as a updated CL’s type camera body replacement?
Would make sense to me else why would they bother keep rolling out new APSC L mount lenses if the format had no future? Or alternatively maybe they know Panasonic have such plans? Maybe for instance a even smaller version of the S5??
This is an interesting question, Don. Sigma is full steam ahead on APS-C L-mount lenses and surely can’t expect them all to sell to CL owners. It doesn’t seem to make financial sense. Sigma could have an APS-C camera in the works, who knows. But I very much doubt we will see one from Panasonic. With their MFT and FF offerings, Panasonic have ruled out APS-C. Fujifilm took a similar decision from their established APS-C base. Instead of going FF, they went MF but I’m not at all sure that medium format is the future, largely because of cost and the size of the lenses.
I found Leica’s mailshot today to be somewhat revealing on this subject. IE. They are offering extra insurance plus three free copies of the Leica magazine to anyone regestering a (New?) M,SL,Q camera or lens before November 31st. So as such as the CL is ignored surely that suggests such as the CL is a has been as far as Leica are now concerned, meaning I suspect no CL2 as its line rather like the previous superb X range has already been consigned to the scrap heap.
It’s looking extremely likely, Don. Slowdriver’s reference to Stefan Daniel’s comment (see comment) is revealing. John Görten, whom he quotes, is a reliable witness. I think Leica ought to consider a full-frame small camera based on the CL or Q. There are now many lighter-weight FF lenses around (such as the Lumix 20-60) and I think people would appreciate a smaller interchangeable-lens camera. While it would likely be bigger than the CL, it needn’t be as deep as the Q2 without the built-in lens. Whatever is happening, though, there is little seeping out from Leitz Park.
A compact FF L-mount camera is a camera that a lot of people have been asking for since a very long time already. I believe it will eventually see the light of day but I would still expect to see an M11, a Q3 and the remaining SL-lenses (21mm and 24mm) first. My guess would still be 2023 at the very earliest…
Two people who attended the September meeting in Wetzlar where Stefan Daniel spoke confirmed that he said “No decision has been made to continue the CL system”. While it’s not 100% conclusive it doesn’t paint an optimistic picture.
If you have invested in the TL system you can obviously continue to use it until it fails, but inevitably there is a sense of betrayal and a desire to move to another brand that shows more commitment to investment and development than Leica seems capable of.
Let’s keep this thread alive. Something new ? CL is such a nice camera for M lenses. 50 f 1.4 = 75 f 1.4 and 75 f2 = 105 f 2. one of the two and one 11-23 (16-35) then you have a very compact system. (I have both M and TL system) I can not understand that Leica does not spend more energy on it. I just bought the Canon R3 and 5 RF lenses. I do not think Leica can keep up with competition on the big professional system. It is SO good and you have to consider very carefully if you want to start on a new FF L Mount camera. SL is still too big for SL camera body. Just good advice. It is, of course, individual and my completely private position. But there are strong indications that SL is not selling so well. BUT Leica has a very special quality in small systems. Just see Leica M and Leica Q. So Leica – get started with the new CL2 now … 🙏🏻
Put the full frame SL2 sensor in the Leica CL body, add IBIS and hopefully not too much additional depth and you have the versatility of a small bodied, full frame Leica that can take M and L lenses, as well as providing a 21MP body (which is more than adequate for most uses) when you attach the great Leica TL lenses.
This unfortunately does not inspire much confidence. Somebody called John Görten on LeicaRumors: “There will be definitively no new CL2! Leica does not see any future in APSc. These were the words from Stefan Daniel a few weeks ago in Wetzlar at a talk he gave.”
Yet in todays LeicaRumors they say there will be a new CL in 2022. But I think your report carries more weight. We will just have to wait and see but I don’t have a lot of hope.
I used my Leica CL at a cyclo cross race in Baltimore on Saturday. Before the race I had breakfast in a 50s diner and after the race dinner in a bar/restaurant. I took pictures at both locations as well. I made me appreciate the CL once more and it also re-confirmed its unique place in the Leica product family for me. I only used the 18-56 zoom. Could I have used the SL with the 24-90? I sure could have for the cycling race (albeit with a weight penalty, x3 or x4…) but in the diner and in the bar/restaurant? Let’s be honest, the SL with the 24-90 is not exactly unobtrusive… Could I have used an M? Difficult, no zoom for the cycling race, no close focusing for food pictures, … I was very glad I owned the CL and that I decided to take it with me. For me personally, an L-mount alliance without APS-C does not make any sense…
Good discussion. Hands down I have always felt that they should have kept developing the TL2 – beautiful design and the images from it were exquisite. If it had IBIS – I would have kept it. Cameras should be small. There is no need for big hunkering units these days and maybe then it could compete with smartphones. Internal storage and a USB-C port were miles ahead of its time on the TL2.
I remember that Leica did look at developing the TL, including considering adding a built-in viewfinder, but then attention turned to a complete about turn to the CL. In the past then years Leica has lacked focus in its APS-C offerings. From the X1 to the CL, there has been no consistent family development (as there has been with the digital M and it is all the better for it. If they do develop the CL line and avoid the temptation to go off at a tangent, then there might be hope.
I also own a TL2 because I think it is unique and has the makings of a classic. I agree that it should have been developed further.
In my photographic career I’ve seen great photos, and great sports photos, have been taken on Speed Graphics, Ms, Hasselblad, and 35mm film cameras – all without image stabilisation, autofocus, and dozens of options. The CL is a great camera but deserves ibis to make the 55-135 really useful in low light, and a degree of weather-proofing. The outstanding lenses are the 35 & 60, and are worth the cost. Trouble I think the problem Leica has is that it it too affordable and can challenge other Leica products on image quality. With many products in the so-called ‘luxury’ market segment, the relative affordability is a turn-off. A sad reflection on society. The CL is not small in historical terms – it’ not much smaller than my old Nikon F3. The CL is probably the ultimate travel and street kit, and if you know what you’re doing, OK for sport if necessary. Leica would be mad to dump it.
The last firmware is thrilling since the beginning:
”bringing you new features and enhanced camera handling”
Was -Wheel lock in live view- a menu option already in 4.0; guess so.
So, maybe comes with a brand new Leica style of an absolute freedom adventure of just ignoring what’s new.
Don’t forget exporting profiles before. Because instructions pdf ignores reminding it too.
As far as I can see at first glance everything continues the same. Focus spot wandering included.
Am I wrong, or files have a new texture, no hot pixels? Ojalà
Just an illusion. Files are same as always. Still don’t know what’s new.
Blank firmware update?, shall we rely these people any longer?
New firmware update 4.1 for the Leica CL:
https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-CL-TL2/Leica-CL/Firmware
I interpret this as an attempt from Leica to keep its customers engaged while at the same time also setting the expectation to not expect a new CL2 within the next 6-9 months. The firmware does not seem to offer anything meaningful (please correct me if I am wrong) so I will probably pass on installing this firmware. It would only irritate me as it with 100% certitude will re-set my file numbering…
If recent rumors are to be believed no new CL2 anytime soon…
I forgot the hot pixels I’d like to have shared. Still there visible in underexposed areas if editing with high contrast and clarity. There are tastes for everything.
I thought a new model could solve that, but never mind any longer.
The other improvements aren’t really needed, except perhaps IS.
Users ask more and more for weather sealing, but I never really miss it.
IS would be justified for the rather bulky L lenses in the market, except Elmarit 18. Wonder why. I had a Summicron and didn’t like it. The Sigma 30 1.4 is a great lens which will welcome it for sure, but I’m happy as it does.
26 instead 24 isn’t a great thing I guess. Hot pixels off would be nice.
Maybe EVF and autofocus could be improved but no complaints from this side.
Adjustable screen, absolutely not for me, my screen is always off. It’d make the camera messy and uncomfortable.
More battery life? Sure, it’s poor actually. Buying one spare more makes the job.
At the end a very friendly and intuitive camera. Difficult to improve.
Thanks
I agree with all of the comments about the usability of the fixed focus point. Its how I shoot with my M10, fix my focus point and then re-compose, and my frustration with a TL2 in this regard resulted in my selling it. I also wonder if Leica is holding off on a CL2 to allow the video-centric SL-2S to acquire more sales. Leica advertises the CL as a return to the Barnack principle of a compact functional camera. I wouldn’t mind seeing video taken out to a allow room for IBIS and weather protection to keep the camera small. In any case, a video-capable camera without some kind of image stabilization is antiquated compared to the current competition. Great article – I hope Leica is listening.
APS-C is dead… but then there is this…:
https://www.canonwatch.com/three-canon-eos-r-models-with-aps-c-sensor-coming-sooner-or-later/
and this…:
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leaked-images-of-the-new-nikon-zfc-to-be-announced-on-june-28/
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/more-leaked-images-of-the-new-nikon-zfc-camera/
So perhaps APS-C is not dead…
Just an observation, people who bought into the original T will remember that in 2016 and early 2017 similar discussions were going on. A lot of people were convinced the T was a dead end at the time and TL lenses (still T lenses at the time) could be had for little money on eBay. . 5 years later we seem to be back in a similar place… Why is that? Why is Leica unable (and quite frankly unwilling) to communicate with its customers, provide them with a roadmap and give them a better feeling about the future. I personally just don’t get it…
Leica’s approach to APS-C over the past twelve years does seem to lack coordination. They’ve flip-flopped several times, introducing interesting cameras and then abandoning them prematurely, only to set off on a new tangent.
For instance, The X1 was a very good little camera that ticked almost all the boxes back in 2009. But instead of developing it beyond the X2, they turned to the X and the X Vario before prematurely cancelling them. Another change of direction resulted in the T. And instead of developing that (by adding a viewfinder) they turned to the CL.
All are worthy cameras, but there is no continuity. For that reason, customers are always suspicious of future intent and whether or not it’s a good idea to invest in the system.
Contrast this with Fuji, Sony and other manufacturers where we can see a steady development and a common theme. I think this could make the basis of another article, don’t you?
Yes, it would be a good basis for another article, I agree. I have the impression that APS-C is not an end goal in itself for Leica. It is more of a laboratory, it allows them to try out new things that eventually (if successful) will find their way into a new FF implementation. And then there is also the overall context, the shrinking camera market and the fact that smaller sensor sizes like m43 and APS-C seem to be under serious pressure.
BTW, it is also very interesting to see that the Leica X cameras (inc Vario) still have such a loyal following. The last one dates from 7 years ago already if I am not mistaken.
Agreed. Leica’s only reaction is to discontinue rather than develop. It’s almost as though the design team was replaced every two or three years and they threw out all the old ideas.
You may well be right, Mike. I am still awaiting a reply from Leica (via Leica UK) to my question: why is there no cross-fertilization of design ideas between the various product ranges. Pedigree designs seem to have very short lives. The irritating omission of a tripod bush in the Leica CL handgrip, is but one example. No standard direction for inserting an SD card. So simple, yet no design standards.
If Leica does kill off the CL they will be making the same mistake they made when they decided not to continue developing the original (film) one. I like both that camera and the new CL better than the M for practical picture taking.The rangefinder in the M is only more accurate than the old CL when it is perfectly adjusted (which it often isn’t), and the 40mm and 90mm lens set are great.
Richard has a very good point though.
Thank you for this interesting article, and for stimulating discussion.
For my part, as a committed CL owner/user, I would say leave it alone; accept it for what is is, warts and all, work with it, and it will bring rich, photographic rewards. It is more than capable. Why be tempted to create a “camel”, the trap fallen into by most other camera manufacturers in trying to satisfy every whim in a move to widen sales?
I think the argument against fixing the centre focus point and using focus and re-compose, is that rather than moving the whole camera around, just learn to move the focus point. On something like the SL2 this is a lot simpler and less prone to error with the toggle switch. With the CL it would be easier if you could press one button to always re-centre the focus point. That way you always know the start point (I wasn’t aware that tapping the screen did this as mentioned above). I also recall that Phase One cameras (which I’ve never used) had an accelerometer which measured the amount of movement between you activating the focus and then re-composing. The camera would then micro adjust the focus to compensate for the slight change in focus distance …..
For me, just give the CL2 the same toggle as the SL2, well away from where the palm of your hand might rest.
I agree that the joystick on the SL avoids this problem, as long as you can resist knocking it by mistake. It is less touchy in this respect that the four way pad of the CL and Q.
I do not have a SL2 but as with the CL I do sometimes suffer from the wandering focus spot with my SL as well, and due usually to my accidentally knocking or catching the joystick.
I find that the focussing point on my CL sometimes finds itself somewhere off-centre, but is easy enough to correct. I’m not sure why or how it does this, but it would probably be good to have a way of preventing this.
For me, the CL came alive with the 4 firmware update and the new settings “front screen”. I have had Olympus cameras, and currently the Leica D-Lux 7, and whilst they work well, the menu systems are far more complex than the CL’s, which I like for its simplicity and “directness”.
As well as Leica and Sigma L-mount lenses, I’m using both my old and newer M-mount glass, along with LTM/M42 lenses, and, one way or another, the CL is able to (mostly) deliver the results I want and expect.
I’m entranced enough with Leica APS-C on the CL that I recently bought a new TL2, but I’d certainly like to see a CL2. My main wishlist is for a better EVF and improved autofocus. However, I wouldn’t want it to be a larger camera, and I’m no fan of moveable screens. It would be good to see such upgrades entirely within the existing body, which I find near-perfect in style and function; unencumbered as it is with built-in bumps and grips. If I wanted improved grip/handling, then I’d buy a bolt-on grip, rather than have the camera body changed in any way.
I agree on the form of the CL and wouldn’t like to see it larger. It’s interesting, by the way, that Ricoh have managed to squeeze IBIS into an even smaller body with the GR.
I’m not sure I quite understood the debated problem with the centering of the focus point? I shoot with a Leica Q always using a centre focus point. If it “wanders”, I just double tap the screen – and voila, it’s in place again ……. I should add, that I very seldom have to do that!
Stig, I agree. Focusing has never been an issue with me. With the CL, hybrid focusing is my default cure should I encounter any confusion over focusing accuracy.
To clarify the focusing square or cross you seen in the EVF wanders even when the rear screen is switched off. This is due to catching the 4-way controller on an item of clothing perhaps and that moves the square. In the heat of shooting you don’t always notice the square has moved. What owners want is a default setting where the focus square does not move unless a setting is changed to allow it to do so. Nudging the 4-way controller is not always an intentional move.
Exactly what is needed, Don
Thanks for this compilation of comments and concerns. I hope someone passes them along to Leica to at least understand that even the criticisms are constructive and demonstrate a desire by owners and would-be buyers to see Leica fix them, rather than just walk away.
As to the wandering focus point, maybe some can confirm out of all the current and recent Leica cameras, which ones have the same problem as the CL? If they all do then it’s likely a problem intrinsic to the basic interaction between the screen and the software and that might require a major overhaul. If it’s only the CL that has this problem, and it must be known to Leica if they do product/customer clinics, then why such a reluctance to fix it?
Please tell me the Q2m does not have this focus problem ! If Sir John S is being driven to distraction, all my savings for Q2m will have to go somewhere else. I am planning on a Milky Way photo class in the Adirondack park, at Camp Sagamore one of the Great Camps owned by the Vanderbilt family during the Gilded Age. I was going trade for Q2m but maybe o should get a used Sl and try out 2 Sigma lense, or because Dave S has made a believer of me with his Nikon Df get that w Nikon lens! Dam please tell me Q2m does not have this issue! Anybody?
The focus point on my Q2 doesn’t go anywhere other than the centre unless I want it to. The Df is a misunderstood and underrated camera.
Thank you for the Df support, it is an amazing camera to use. There is a pro out there, who did marketing work for the Game of Thrones series, and some of her most iconic GoT images on set are taken with the Df.
It does have the same problem. It’s almost a Leica trademark. But while John has had problems, I don’t. I put it down to the thumb grip or the half case. That said, I’ve been using the camera recently without the hard case and the focus point has stayed in the centre. It’s all a case of avoiding touching the fourths pad with the hand.
The Df most certainly does not have wandering focus. 🙂
The Df is an amazing camera. My best friend owns one and loves it.
For me, the wandering focus is a total deal breaker for me. It is so insanely silly that they could have a lot more sales with a trivial firmware fix. I sold a camera due to the wandering focus as it made me miss decisive moments. I would love a compact Leica with AF to complement my M9. I ended up buying a Sigma Fp which had gorgeous rendering and colours and all essential settings on the body and intuitive to use. Leica missed a sale on this silliness – it is still not too late for them to find a competent product manager. There is so much they could be doing. If necessary drop the poorly supported medium format system; they lost that war a long time ago but the product manager seems to be unaware.
I love my Leica glass, M9, and SL2. Cameras are a very personal choice. Unfortunately, many people are stuck to systems for wrong reasons. I wish I had a camera store that stocked more than Canon, Nikon, and Sony so that I can see whether something seems natural to me. For me, a camera and lens are like a paint brush and must be an extension to my arm and get out of the way on capturing what I see. When I see something happening before me, i want to be fully familiar with what the camera is doing and be in the zone. I use centre weighted metering because I know what it is doing. I prefer an aperture ring on my glass as I can confirm what it is at glance as I lift my camera I can also count clicks as I lift it. I prefer centred focus and recompose as I know what focus mode the camera is in. I do not shoot videos so make that feature and it’s menus disappear easily – the Sigma Fp did this brilliantly.
I love my leica cameras and lenses in general for their craftsmanship, image rendering, and intuitive haptics. They dropped the ball on the SL with its uncomfortable edges but the SL2 fixes that for me. But the SL was gorgeous to look at. I was thinking of grinding the corners off but I am not good at it…so sold it and moved on to the incredible Hasselblad X1D which is a whole other story on nothing happening here for rollout.
I also think most people put too much emphasis on sensor size. They need to stop reading the spec focussed blogs and review sites. Even M43 is more than adequate for most people. APS-C is great; if you stop pixel peeping and look at the soul of your images, most specs are irrelevant. Do you enjoy your camera and lenses or the specs. When I used to go to camera clubs, so many were buying the next release or upgrading to a more expensive camera to improve their boring pictures. It seems most people do not want to pay for education and think a camera with AI features will make them a better artist. At least there is now a Leica introduction to the Leica SL2 course for a mere $600 that probably shows to press the shutter button to capture your vision.
I digress. I would love a CL2, or even a CL, if Leica product management come to the realization that a wandering focus point is contrary to pure photography. Just go to the firmware development team and offer a free coffee to it being fixed and tested in the next 15 minutes.
Brian,
I agree about the people who pixel peep, and go with specs. I have an image in my collection where my X was tripod mounted and struggling to capture the image I wanted. I walked around the scene Df in hand, knowing what I was hoping for, but not getting the deal out of my lovely Leica. I then took a lowlight handheld shot across the scene of a different composition. To this day it is one of those images I love, and the lowlight super capabilities of the Df suddenly became apparent. I still recommend the Df to those who fancy one, and they are still in sparse supply in the secondhand market. I now know people who own two, in case one breaks, and I fully understand why.
Best
Dave
I am still on the fence with regards the CL, as I always wanted a replacement for my X, or a CL with a fixed 35mm lens. I love the Q, but would prefer it with a 35mm lens. And therein lies my conundrum on the when and if I decide to buy another camera.
Saying that, some of my best coastal images this year have all been shot on the X, and they seem to be getting a bit of serious love on my Flickr page. I know not why, but clear after almost a year off something has changed the view of my images, or just clearly made me more observant. Who knows, but I wish I could bottle it. Either way this shows my current crop of cameras are sufficient, and I have no need for anything else – just yet.
Also I would say getting Covid has cured many of GAS issues and itchy feet. Purely on the basis as I appreciate what I have, and I am just grateful to be out there with a camera in my hand.
Dave, I use my CL fitted with the 23 mm Summicron as an upgrade alternative to my venerable X1, and am delighted with the results. The bonus is that you have the core of a very flexible, low-weight, low-bulk camera system. With an appropriate adapter, you might be able to use some of your existing lenses. Failing that, consider adding the excellent standard zoom which would cover most of your travel needs.
I agree that the 23mm Summicron is a very good lens and is compact enough to bear comparison with Dave’s X.
Hi David,
I read your CL article last night via the link, it is both useful and very informative. Perhaps one will creep on to my wish list.
Although I must confess my X images have been doing incredibly well on Flickr of late.
Thank you for the additional information.
Best Dave
Dave, do remember, a CL need not replace your Leica X; they are not mutually exclusive. Occasionally I choose to use just my Leica X1. There is a degree of nostalgia in the occasion and I bring more experience to using it than when I bought it, eleven years ago.